Report a Player - PC Jolly [8462] - Glitcher<br>Other

Your In-game name

KitKat

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

PC Jolly [8462]

Date of the incident

05/01/20

Time of the incident (GMT)

1845

What best describes this incident ?

Glitcher
Other

Which server did the incident take place on

Altis Life

Please (in detail) describe the incident

So after a gun fight in Athira a policeman was taken hostage by Poseidon and handed over to Ground Branch. We were robbing the bank with the hostage and while robbing it for some reason the zips fell off. (he was not lockpicked, even tho i say it. I first thought it but he wasnt.) As u can see he decided to run off, he later returns but refuse to put his hands back up and continue to be a hostage claiming he hasnt done anything wrong.

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://youtu.be/BMnp4ic3JSs
This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

No

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

Personally, I feel like this a gross misuse of the Report a Player function and you have made this report due to the events that took place after the incident. Firstly, the reason I ran away was because I thought I had been lockpicked out by Spartan. You can clearly see him very close to me in the clip and you yourself shout that I had been unrestrained. Therefore, I took the opportunity as I was valuing my life in the context of RP. Once outside, what I assume was one of your gang members, attempted to knock me out without any sort of prior RP. 

After I had escaped, I was messaged from another officer and pulled into a TS room where I was informed that YOU had maybe made a mistake in saying I was lockpicked out. I cannot be at fault here as I believed I had been lockpicked out because you yourself said it. But in good sportsmanship I did return to Athira Bank to resolve the issue. However this is where you're getting your facts wrong. As far as I can remember (since you haven't uploaded the full clip, which I would like you to do so), I never tried to say I did anything wrong. That was a blatant lie. I said nothing. The other officer who was present was arguing that perhaps, considering the circumstances, the situation should be called off. I didn't say anything. You also failed to mention that once AR had arrived, YOU were the one who got angry and left the bank because the situation wasn't in your favour. You didn't try and resolve things, instead leaving the situation entirely. Once you left I even hung around with your gang members until they left too. 

That in combination with not attempting to resolve the issue over TeamSpeak makes me personally feel that this report is a sort of attempt to get back at me because you didn't like how the situation turned out. I did all the things that I possibly could. I returned to the scene, I wasn't abusive, I tried to resolve things peacefully and you left of your own accord. Maybe if you'd talked to me first I would've been able to explain my side and tried to resolve things. Personally, just feel attacked by this report. 

OfficiallyJolly said:

Personally, I feel like this a gross misuse of the Report a Player function and you have made this report due to the events that took place after the incident. Firstly, the reason I ran away was because I thought I had been lockpicked out by Spartan. You can clearly see him very close to me in the clip and you yourself shout that I had been unrestrained. Therefore, I took the opportunity as I was valuing my life in the context of RP. Once outside, what I assume was one of your gang members, attempted to knock me out without any sort of prior RP. 

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In the heat of the momment i did belive u were but it is clear that u werent. As spartan is moving and not in a animation, i did mention this above.

OfficiallyJolly said:

After I had escaped, I was messaged from another officer and pulled into a TS room where I was informed that YOU had maybe made a mistake in saying I was lockpicked out. I cannot be at fault here as I believed I had been lockpicked out because you yourself said it. But in good sportsmanship I did return to Athira Bank to resolve the issue. However this is where you're getting your facts wrong. As far as I can remember (since you haven't uploaded the full clip, which I would like you to do so), I never tried to say I did anything wrong. That was a blatant lie. I said nothing. The other officer who was present was arguing that perhaps, considering the circumstances, the situation should be called off. I didn't say anything. You also failed to mention that once AR had arrived, YOU were the one who got angry and left the bank because the situation wasn't in your favour. You didn't try and resolve things, instead leaving the situation entirely. Once you left I even hung around with your gang members until they left too.

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I did tell u and ur officer that u needed to put ur hands on ur head again were u was and u refused that by simply not doing it u were given several chances before ur friend decided that it wouldn't lead to anything so u guys were gonna leave. At that point i did indeed say fuck this and left as u still were not complying and wanting to continue RP. I had to wait 10 minutes for u to come back i am not arguing with ur friend for another 10. 

In this case u have broke a rule u refuse to make it right and continue RP from were u broke the rule witch u had several chances to. I am tired of police always breaking rules, and wanting to sort it in liaison. 

The fact ur saying i am doing this due to it not going my favor i would say it very much did i left with everything i had +850k, i simply wanted a proper negotiations and some fun. But ur not willing to provide. I will hereby only answer comments from staff.  

Look, it's very clear that I did not intentionally glitch my restraints since I did return to the situation in an attempt to resolve things. You can't ban someone for trying to resolve a mistake that was made because of your poor judgement. And you cannot fault me for returning to try and resolve things.

TikTak said:

I did tell u and ur officer that u needed to put ur hands on ur head again were u was and u refused that by simply not doing it u were given several chances before ur friend decided that it wouldn't lead to anything so u guys were gonna leave.

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At this point I was attempting to find out whether there had been a mistake with the restraints or if Spartan had actually lockpicked me out. You can't blame me for not doing INSTANTLY what you asked since I wanted the full story, which you failed to provide both in-game and after the incident. You never said that Spartan didn't lockpick me out, you didn't say it to me in OOC, so how was I suppose to know that I hadn't been lockpicked out?

TikTak said:

At that point i did indeed say fuck this and left as u still were not complying and wanting to continue RP.

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Another example of you not trying to solve a situation, instead escalating things because you weren't getting your way.

TikTak said:

I had to wait 10 minutes for u to come back i am not arguing with ur friend for another 10. 

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Blatant lie. You were maybe waiting 5 minutes for me to come back and you spent no more than a minute talking to me and the other officer (Show the full clip to prove me wrong). 

TikTak said:

In this case u have broke a rule u refuse to make it right and continue RP

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I came back to try and resolve the RP while still roleplaying. You were the one who left because you were infuriated with how the situation went. I know this because you showed little patience in talking to us and said 'Fuck this' before leaving in an aggressive manner.

TikTak said:

I am tired of police always breaking rules, and wanting to sort it in liaison.

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Sometimes people make mistakes, and break rules. But we all deal with it because we love playing in the community and having a good time. But you cannot generalise your view and treat officers more and more hostile, based on your previous interactions. You must handle every situation with a non-biased view. So you're admitting you made this report because you don't like the police? You want someone punished because of your bad experiences with them? Also you're clearly not happy with the system for dealing with issues like this (i.e going to liaison to sort things out) which shows you're not someone who compromises. If you don't like the way things work in RPUK, you can always leave. Reporting players because of their faction's actions towards you won't get you anywhere.

TikTak said:

The fact ur saying i am doing this due to it not going my favor i would say it very much did i left with everything i had +850k, i simply wanted a proper negotiations and some fun. But ur not willing to provide.

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Once you left me and your gang mates actually did have a very fun and lighthearted RP. It's just a shame you tried to ruin everything because of a misunderstanding that YOU created.

TikTak said:

I will hereby only answer comments from staff.

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If you're not even bothered to defend your argument and block me out all together then that gives me solid proof that you're just ignoring RPUK's code of conduct and escalating things to a ban as fast as possible. I believe all you want is for me to be punished. You don't care about the RP at all, or even trying to resolve things like adults. Well, I've said my piece. If that's your attitude, then so be it. 

To summarise, you didn't make any attempt to tell me that you thought I broken a rule (OOC or otherwise), you failed to resolve the situation on TS, you seem to have created this report because of your dissatisfaction with the police and have failed to be co-operative in providing evidence. What else can I realistically do in this scenario?

I don't believe I need to continue a huge amount of discussion on this before a decision of some variety is made. However for clarity I'll make a few observations.

TikTak said:

In the heat of the momment i did belive u were

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I can't help but question how you can suggest he wouldn't have thought this as well in the heat of the moment?

Is this report for the act of running away when the restraints dropped? That is what the evidence shows and now this has been discussed (and I would observe that that's why we encourage members to discuss situations when mistakes happen), it appears fairly clear that everyone in the situation was confused and it'd be unreasonable to hold Jolly to the standard of realising exactly what had happened when you didn't quite realise it yourself and spoke in-game based on this view.

If this report is for Jolly not returning and continuing once they were informed what had happened... It's not possible to make a judgement on that based on your back and forth on the forums. Rules decisions obviously have to be arbitated based on the evidence presented.

I would like to suggest that given the situation had presumably continued for some duration between the end of the video and the point where discussion had taken place on teamspeak,  it would have likely made considerably more sense for the two parties to agree to some sort of mitigation for the impact of the mistake and had a fresh RP situation so that all sides could benefit from the continuation of RP. I wouldn't advise suspending a current roleplay situation to discuss alleged rule matters.

TikTak said:

I am tired of police always breaking rules, and wanting to sort it in liaison. 

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If the reporting party had been more willing to discuss the situation rather than allowing their view of the police to sway them, a good solution may have been reached organically. This is, of course, not required by our rule structure. We encourage this however for a good reason. Part of this being an adult community in my view would be that individual players should be treated as the adult-acting people we expect them to be and generalising a member as part of their faction is unhelpful for good problem resolution.

Any observations from @TikTak on my comments would be appreciated.

TomTheDoge said:

I can't help but question how you can suggest he wouldn't have thought this as well in the heat of the moment?

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Yes it took me a couple of seconds to realise what he did but it was right after the video cut i said wait how did he get out. 

TomTheDoge said:

Is this report for the act of running away when the restraints dropped? That is what the evidence shows and now this has been discussed (and I would observe that that's why we encourage members to discuss situations when mistakes happen), it appears fairly clear that everyone in the situation was confused and it'd be unreasonable to hold Jolly to the standard of realising exactly what had happened when you didn't quite realise it yourself and spoke in-game based on this view.

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The report is for exploiting the ziptie timer/max distance, the rest is just so its on the record he was given the chance to come back and continue his RP but chose to not finish the RP. 

TomTheDoge said:

If the reporting party had been more willing to discuss the situation rather than allowing their view of the police to sway them, a good solution may have been reached organically. This is, of course, not required by our rule structure. We encourage this however for a good reason. Part of this being an adult community in my view would be that individual players should be treated as the adult-acting people we expect them to be and generalising a member as part of their faction is unhelpful for good problem resolution.

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I am tired of spending time in lision that goes back and forth for an hour while videos are being uploaded etc. The police is a whitelisted faction wich is expected to RP to a higher standard and know the rules. I want to spend my time playing Arma 3 not play who can last the longest in a discussion. 

Your report is currently being reviewed, Please be patient while the evidence is reviewed

Please keep checking this report regularly just in case the reviewing staff member has any questions

Thank you for your report and you doing your part to keep our community clean!

I'll address the main points of this report. I'll also add some comments that might retread the ground of my previous comment but for clarity of judgement this seems appropriate...

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1) The rule issue as shown in the video evidence

It's not a point of contention that a rule was broken here. To be specific, rule (2.4). It would be exploiting a mechanic of the game where your restraints will drop if the person that restrains you is too far away. Occasionally there are bugs with this system so when your restraints drop you should be given the following message...

"You have been unrestrained as your restrainers left the area. Please Note: If there is a situation still ongoing, please remain where you are and raise your hands (Shift+J)"

This message seemingly didn't fire and this will be looked into on a development level, but as a result of that, more leeway can reasonably be given for not acting as expected. The important question therefore is whether there was intent to exploit the issue in this case. Given TikTak's reaction and admission that in the heat of the moment it could reasonably appear that Jolly was lockpicked from restraints, it's reasonable for Jolly to react to what was being said in character and run away. As a result of this, I am going to make the judgement call that this was a simple misunderstanding and not take action for the initial action of exploiting. Jolly is clearly aware of this mechanic now and this will not be a mistake that he makes again.

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2) Hearsay from the discussion on the forum and some wider context

The second point to question then is why Jolly didn't return to rectify the mistake. This isn't shown in video evidence so my judgement on this matter should be fairly predictable, however discussion on the forums has made the situation context slightly clearer. As a result of this I will make some observations on the situation for future reference of both parties.

To the best of my understanding, the hostage taking party including TikTak made no contact with Jolly to make him aware that the rule was broken. It was actually another police officer who advised Jolly that it appeared from his view that he may have glitched from restraints. Realising this, Jolly returned to the situation to see if the people in question would indicate to him out of character what happened but he was instead met (reportedly) by a continuation of the RP in the form of requests to put his hands up.  It isn't something I can expect Jolly to have assumed that they meant he had to put his hands up because they believed he'd broken a rule as this was not communicated out of character to him. His choice to instead continue with the RP fresh seems reasonable.

There isn't a requirement to break RP immersion to type out of character but if you don't do this, "RP everything" would be the default and you deal with any disagreements at the end of the situation. TikTak instead chose not to discuss this with Jolly and place a report on the forums. While this is allowed, I can't avoid the fact that in a non-clearcut situation like this I can't assume malice on Jolly's behalf.

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3) Final decision and a suggestion for future situations

My decision is fairly simple (in spite of how long-winded this post is...). Jolly could be reasonably assumed to have made a simple mistake in this circumstances and if TikTak had chosen to assume good intentions of Jolly rather than assume malice based on a blanket opinion on him as a member of a faction, he would likely have found Jolly to be perfectly willing to act to mitigate the mistake and all sides could have enjoyed a quality RP situation.

@TikTak you're somewhat misunderstanding me in my view it seems, based on your response to my earlier comments. I don't expect you to spend long periods of time in liaison rooms having disputes with members unless you wish to. I do however believe that this is indeed an adult community and by treating members as well intentioned adults, you will find many to be very happy to fix their mistakes in a way that could create more quality RP. Jolly made a simple mistake and would have acted to fix his mistake if you had not assumed the worst of him. I would take this as a lesson in future as it appears to me and others that you are very fast to report members of the police vexatiously due to your own biases and unwillingness to talk to them. We will not humour this by actioning all reports of rulebreaks when you make no attempt to account for the reasonable human mistakes of other players.

Report declined.

Thank you for your report, Unfortunately, it has been declined

The staff member will advise shortly why on this occasion they have declined to take action against the reported player.

Please do not let this put you off making further reports in the future, We rely on our player base to help keep our community clean.