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Report a Player - SI Dredd - Poor/Low Quality RP<br>Other

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GP Salty Vampire

Well-known member
Location
Cheshire, England, GB
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Your In-game name

Salty Vampire

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

SI Dredd

Date of the incident

04/11/2016

Time of the incident (GMT)

2106

What best describes this incident ?

Poor/Low Quality RP
Other

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1
Teamspeak

Please (in detail) describe the incident

Before I begin I would like to make clear that it was a difficult decision to choose how to bring this to Police Command and/or Staff. I consulted with staff member Arrogantbread who agreed with CMO Marc, the head of my gang, that this is a player report issue and not one for the PCC. I hope that this is appropriate, as I understand player reports are to be taken seriously. But I want an unbiased Staff/Management perspective on this, as I do not necessarily feel a CSI will look at this with the server in mind, but instead with the Police in mind.

To the point of the report: Myself and Abandoned Anarchists had planned this a few days before now, as we decided it would be fun RP to 'privatize' the prison. I managed to warp this into an RP HM operation by inventing a background where the Police had fallen into debt, and so the prison had to be contracted out. This meant there was a charge for every prisoner we accepted. However, I came up with the story that the Queen had offered to clear the debt through gold bars from the HMT. That is the basic gist of what happened, for more information you can read this Google doc we sent to the Police that we designed for this op: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qsvANw1AmFXDA6ve2rRLqunX5vo-7Hge_NNS47lEDlU/edit

I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, but to my gang and I, this seemed like a well-developed, unique and engaging RP idea. I even spoke to some members of AEGIS (including Feather, who watched the entire op in game) who all said that this was a great idea.

So we begin this op, and when we finally get some Police attention, it all seems to be going well. PapaSmurfy and Ross seem to be playing into our idea just fine at first. They then seem to communicate with someone out of game (presumably Dredd), and return to spend 20 minutes denying us any worthwhile reward for our efforts (500k for the number of gang members we had involved is frankly pathetic, it likely cost us more to get the uniform and gear for the op than what they offered). So this goes on and on, until they eventually return from their car to announce they have been told to arrest us all, before they shoot us all down with rubbers.

Ignoring the clear failure of initiation when they shot us, it makes zero RP sense that they are arresting us from our own property. Should there not be at least some effort to disprove our story before you decide 'they're lying, just arrest them'? Laurens then takes over and insists that we either leave or be fined, and when we don’t it becomes either fined or imprisoned. Fair enough. As far as I’m concerned, Laurens dealt with the situation fine given the circumstances he was made to deal with. In fact, despite their minimal RP at times, I do not take issue with any of the cops on scene. They did what they could for the most part. They’re not authorized to grant us the gold and so they didn’t. Fine. However, the cop who is authorized to do so is who I am reporting today.
The SPCs had a degree of communication with SI Dredd during the op. From our liaison, it seemed to be as simple as this (not quotes, just what I am guessing happened)

SPC: Hey Dredd, some rebels aren’t letting us in the prison and want gold. They gave us this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qsvANw1AmFXDA6ve2rRLqunX5vo-7Hge_NNS47lEDlU/edit
Can we give them it?


Dredd: No, don’t give them anything, just arrest them.

I understand that Dredd wasn’t there, and so he couldn’t make the most educated decision on what to do with us. What I don’t understand is why he would simply dismiss our efforts entirely. To me, that does not seem like a particularly great attitude for an SI.

I spoke to Dredd in the liaison room, which TomTheDoge recorded and uploaded (found below). He and the SPCs explained to me what went on on their side, which is how I formed the recreated conversation I wrote earlier. This all made sense, but numerous things Dredd said give me great concern for whether his attitude is suitable for his rank.

First of all, “Roleplay should be a reward in itself”. That is very easy to say from the viewpoint of a faction whose only real expenses are food and bomb defusal kits. I am a highly roleplay oriented player, but I still want money. Money is a key element to the game and serves an objective in the game. However, if I purely cared about the money, I wouldn’t be doing an RP HM. Which is one of the first things that concerns me about Dredd. He seems to imply that if you want money on the server, roleplay isn’t going to get you it. Which to me, seems ridiculous on a serious Roleplay server.

Next up, “When people say ‘I’m gonna RP a bank’ it does my fucking nut in”. Again, are you serious? Discouraging RP HMs is an awful attitude to have in my opinion, one that should be eliminated early in the Police induction process. I believe there is a place for the serious, gunfight HM robberies, but that should be up to the gang, not the Police. I don’t mean to imply that the Police should reward all RP HMs, that would be simply unfair, but they should be given the respect they deserve, especially when they are as unique and developed as ours was.

Now, “Powergaming”. Supposedly, what we did was powergaming as we didn’t give the Police an option that would “benefit” them. Yes, we were a gang infiltrating a bank. No, we didn’t intentionally leave any holes that the Police could use to their advantage. Does that make it powergaming? No. If it was, then the Police would have been unable to arrest us. Which they very clearly did. If we had a terrible RP story, deserving of no merit, then by all means, lock us up and throw away the key. But if an RP HM is deserving of it, then it should be rewarded. If Dredd thought 100 bars was “ridiculous” as he said, then he should have negotiated it down. I will not accept the attitude that no RP is deserving of a reward as it means the Police ‘lose’. I would in fact argue that it is both metagaming and powergaming to magically disprove our RP story with zero evidence, based purely on the grounds of ‘You’re rebels, we’re cops. We protect the treasury, you rob it’.

To me, what he says now is the nail in the coffin. “To be fair, you document was very well written, it was very nice”. This proves that it is not him thinking we didn’t deserve it, but instead it is him refusing to reward RP. And he goes on “I’m not there to negotiate it”, “They said ‘can we do it?’ I said no. That was it.”, “Very very rarely [going to pay out for an RP HM], yeah.” To me, this is a disgusting attitude and if I was still in the Police I would hate to have to deny people the credit their roleplay deserves.

The overall impression I got from Dredd screams ‘I’d rather have a gunfight’. If a gunfight is what he wants he should crawl back down the ranks. He says both of my offers were ridiculous, and I know the £20,000 per prisoner was. That was why I gave the option of the gold. It was a no-brainer. As I said, if he thought 100 was too many he should have negotiated, not dismissed us.

I’ll stop myself there. I could go on for ages on the rest of our liaison, but I feel I have made my point. I am serious when I say I don’t feel SI is the place for him, because if the roleplay of other officers is going to be directly influenced and controlled by him it does nothing but negatively impact the image of and interactions with the Police on the server.

I will also attach footage of the operation. Not that it matters much to the report, but if it will assist with understanding the situation as a whole then every little helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXWrBdLHMjQ

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVmDylffXcc

This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

Yes

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

 
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I have to say I'm EXTREMELY disappointed by the actions in this video

I have to ask, was there even a superior online in this ordeal?

(Main point of video is 26:40 onwards).

I cannot believe what I have watched.... This was some GOLD RP, yeah, you didn't have to give into their demands, but the route taken on this was childish, immature and disrespectful.

I have the right mind to ban anyone who opened fire in this video... do you not think before you click? are you here just to shoot people.

(2.2)[COLOR= rgb(191, 191, 191)] RDM - Random Death Match Definition: [/COLOR]Shooting [COLOR= rgb(191, 191, 191)]at someone without engaging in [/COLOR]any form of quality role play[COLOR= rgb(191, 191, 191)] (eg. [/COLOR]Giving enough time for them to comply with your order[COLOR= rgb(191, 191, 191)]) is considered RDM. (Punishment is a ban) [/COLOR]

That's SHOOTING, not killing....

I'm yet to watch the TS debate... but I'm not sure I want to....

You may say "we did roleplay". The spokesperson for the Majority, Ross, simply stated "you need to leave, you need to leave, you need to leave"....

which can be compared to "hands up or die, hands up or die hands up or die"

ebffdb45038fb701fb18357130f3e507.png


You're searching people you've restrained without even charging them, or telling them what act they're being searched under.

Stop and search: police powers
A police officer has powers to stop and search you if they have ‘reasonable grounds’ to suspect you’re carrying:

illegal drugs
a weapon
stolen property
something which could be used to commit a crime, eg a crowbar

You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:

serious violence could take place
you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
you’re in a specific location or area
Before you’re searched

Before you’re searched the police officer must tell you:

their name and police station
what they expect to find, eg drugs
the reason they want to search you, eg it looks like you’re hiding something
why they are legally allowed to search you
that you can have a record of the search and if this isn’t possible at the time, how you can get a copy


I'm done with this for tonight. 

I'm heading to bed.

When I wake up, I hope to see a DAMN GOOD response written here.

 
Still watching....... 

e1785409c4738bfe7bd168e832bdda85.png


"Here you are, have that, I'll put it in your little pouch"

Whilst his hands are tied?

Okay, finished watching..

off to bed...

 
I am also going to add what I heard in a recent UNMC General interview from a brilliant application on paper to a interview question of why do you want to join the UNMC

"it will suit my style of Roleplay better, I can excute people"

Sorry to add that in but it appears Mr Dredd as forgot what this server should be about... Would love to see your side of the story here to put our minds at rest as a SI seeing that document should of given it more of a thought :) Every player in this community should embrace any efforts of different to the usual Roleplay!

 
So I've skimmed the TS part as I wasn't actually playing at the time of this situation, and I need to get ready for work, and have decided that whatever happens to me is in the hands of Neo &amp; Wilco. I've no excuse for what I said. I was in a foul mood, but if I said it, I said it and let whatever happens as a consequence happen. 

I'll be on at team speak around 19:30 UK time if anyone wishes to speak to me later, but if not, I'll take whatever is sent my way and accept it.  

 
I haven't even got to the report with you yet.... I'm about to watch that.

My main issue with this report so far is SPC Ross and Ins laurens.

Ross for more of his usual persona/attitude and Laurens for powering through a process....

50k ticket, no 100k ticket.... okay, start sending them to prison without opportunity to even play it
PC Lynx

Salty states: "Can i even pay my ticket"

Lynx runs off....

------------------------------

So onto main report Video, the TS debate...

First off, do you really need 5 officers for 2 civs?

second off, Ross, it's not about the money, it was part of their story, and a good one too...

Dredd

"RP a bank, does my fkin nut in, honestly".

"I told the officers No, go arrest them"
You've stated you didnt go ingame, only heard bits of what was happening, you're not on patrol, how can you give orders to influence inside a game from out.

This isn't asking permission to raid a house, this is shutting down a full RP scenario.

There's also the constant talking over Salty Whilst he is talking... is not fair on him, he's outnumbered and being trodden on.

When you put us in a situation that won't benefit us at all


you know how that one sounds, right?

you've essentially said they were powergaming...

There was a million ways out of this situation. make your own temporary prison using zamaks as holding cells? enforce more community service? Ticket where tickets can be given?

or pay the damn 20k, don't you get this every 15 minutes anyway? for a team that gets free gear how can you state "won't benefit us all"

 
I've finished watching... I need to make a decision on this....

 
In my defence for the number of officers in there, they asked Axo to send me up to the Liaison room. 

And as for the getting me involved from outside, I'm not even sure why that happened. There were plenty of officers ranked SPC+ who should have been more than capable of deciding for themselves without asking me. 

 
hello, ive only just been told that this report is up. This is the first report on me since i joined on december of 2014 and to be honest i find it kinda strange that im not being tagged while wanting an input from me, what if i never knew about this report.. kinda puts me in the bad spot.no one have informed me about it...

so what happened i got asked if there was a higher up who could go to the prison since there was a situation going on, at the time i was available i was told Dredd already took care of it but i still went over to see what was going on. i handed lead to Ross since he was there at the time and also from the start in my believe. when i came i was on the hill with the darter checking heat signatures when shit went down. everyone was restrained and lined up and thats when i went down to have a word with them. at that time there was already decided to arrest them; not by me. however when i went down there i still wanted to give them a chance in leaving in peace because i really didnt want to ticket or sent them to prison since theyve put alot of work into their RP. Im sure alot of people in the police channel at the time can confirm i said that. so i gave them a chance in leaving, when i did they started imitating AR things and i dont really remember what they did tbh, they were kinda taunting or something (in rp obv). they refused the ticket and started making Oink noises and stuff and i didnt think a private company which had been hired to take over the prison would do that so i followed the orders and sent them to prison.

im sorry for this long story, if there is anything else that needs to be cleared up tell me please.

edit: in reaction to the 50k ticket and the 100k and then prison was simply it was really hectic, i asked them multiple times if i can only speak to the owner/leader of the company and all i got was lines from them acting AR where like robocops and kill everyone and oink noises. and i did listen and gave them time to explain, i released one of them since he told me he was a news reported and stuff and he got mixed up in between, i hope one of them can confirm that.

kind regards, Laurens

 
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hello, ive only just been told that this report is up. This is the first report on me since i joined on december of 2014 and to be honest i find it kinda strange that im not being tagged while wanting an input from me, what if i never knew about this report.. kinda puts me in the bad spot.no one have informed me about it...
Sorry, I didn't look you up in the 30,000+ members to tag you...

I thought one of the 600 viewers would have told you.

I want a statement from Ross too.

 
Sorry, I didn't look you up in the 30,000+ members to tag you...

I thought one of the 600 viewers would have told you.

I want a statement from Ross too.
as far as i know there is only 1 INS Laurens on this server. i wont be able to reply to the report from now on untill 9 tonight, off to work.

 
second off, Ross, it's not about the money, it was part of their story, and a good one too...
They said to me, or at least I understood it as this, that it was a main factor. Obviously they wanted the RP but also wanted money as they have little funds as a gang.

 While in RP he does (If he wants to stay out of trouble), I was more speaking in rules terms here, who knows if he's a corrupt cop or not? 

SPC: Hey Dredd, some rebels aren’t letting us in the prison and want gold. They gave us this doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qsvANw1AmFXDA6ve2rRLqunX5vo-7Hge_NNS47lEDlU/edit
Can we give them it?


Dredd: No, don’t give them anything, just arrest them.
Pretty much, however it was explained in much more detail, about the actual situation.

In the video I was completely happy with letting you stay at the prison. At this time I didn't quite understand the full scenario and hadn't read the document yet. However when you were pushing for the 100 gold bars, that's something i'm not happy with doing. I wanted to clarify this with someone else who has more authority. Your local PC wouldn't open the countries gold reserve on their own really. 

And as for the getting me involved from outside, I'm not even sure why that happened. There were plenty of officers ranked SPC+ who should have been more than capable of deciding for themselves without asking me. 
I asked you Dredd because I wanted clarification on what to do, to stop me getting moaned at for it (by SI etc, as I believe has happened before)

What Laurens said is pretty much what happened. Anything else, please ask.

 
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as far as i know there is only 1 INS Laurens on this server. i wont be able to reply to the report from now on untill 9 tonight, off to work.
Excuse me, and i know your name is INS Laurens because?

If you want to have an attitude with the fact I don't memorise every single persons name on this forum, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

 
EDIT: Apologies for vile formating. The editor isn't playing for me but it should be legible.

I thought it seemed about time to give some input so thank you to Neo for granting me permission. As is quite clear by now I took it upon myself to record our discussion within the liaison room. To get all the groundwork in place, I was not one of the individuals on the ground at the time and was mainly micromanaging the operation from a helicopter. I was asked to land once or twice and did certainly get involved with RP (so I would consider myself informed enough to give my view) but I will admit I have not re-watched the entire 40 minute video at this point in time.

Having got all of that out of the way I just have a few points to make. On the subject of:

they refused the ticket and started making Oink noises and stuff and i didnt think a private company which had been hired to take over the prison would do that so i followed the orders and sent them to prison.
I will admit I wasn't aware of this. I would suggest that at the most a ticket under the public order act might have been appropriate. Maybe if the now quite riled up group of people were told they were to be charged under that act, they would have calmed down a bit. About the time from when we were shot onward, our comms were less than ideal so getting order together to keep the RP up was exceptionally difficult and we were trying to discuss what was going on so that it would be resolved (I would suggest it is only fair given the situation.) I would suggest that about the time where RDM took place was about the time where the RP story was off of the table. You even say yourself that you didn't want to send us to prison because the RP was good. If it was that good, why would you not go along with it instead of making the arrest? I get the command chain exists and you were told to by an SI but he was seemingly quite misinformed so if you felt so strongly at the time, maybe you should have made that more clear.

Beyond that, the main point of concern that leads me to post here are the fact that we made it very clear what our problem with the situation was. To that end I didn't expect the officers that we allowed to outnumber us so that they all got a fair say, to complain that we were "wasting their time" and begin to leave. I would specifically like @Rossssto explain this. I can understand how it can be easy to underestimate the magnitude of such a thing until you see the video yourself, but even so, I find it rather insulting that we took our time to resolve the situation and were pretty patient while everyone who wanted a say got one and all we got was that were are time wasting. Given the reaction of the management team in response to the evidence I would suggest that even if you feel you acted correctly, acting is such a blasé fashion is not a good idea especially from someone who is speaking in a very official capacity such as SI Dredd.

Secondly, I wonder why the disagreement between Dredd and Laurens couldn't have waited until after the discussion was concluded as I noticed a number of situations in which Salty would get a word in and make his point only to have the various officers talking over each other. It felt to me that although there was someone leading the operation, we don’t really seem to know who it was. Laurens says that he didn’t tell them to shoot, fair enough. Dredd wasn’t in game, fair enough. But one would like to think that the officers that opened fire were given some kind of direction (as they acted somewhat in unison) and didn’t simply take it upon themselves. I would suggest that following the command chain more strictly would have helped to alleviate any issues. Laurens is perfectly capable of making the decisions on his own, being Inspector should be proof enough. While I understand you didn't want any problems from higher ups, you should be able to trust someone of the rank of inspector who was more involved. I get the feeling from that short chat log that Dredd wasn’t really informed that we had already been RPing for an hour and probably thought we just arrived. I’m sure he can elaborate. As much as I am greatly disappointed by a number of the comments made, I wouldn’t wish to see someone held responsible for the fault of another so I await explanation.

Other than that, I really don't enjoy spending over an hour on an RP situation only to be told that I'm only in it for the money. When there are allegations being placed on the table I would like to think we can discuss them rather than trying to cover our backs with clearly nonsense comments such as that. Who would have thought that when I start a bank robbery and ask for 100 gold bars I want some money. Clearly we want money, but we have enough to be ok with failure if we didn't earn it with high quality RP there is a line between wanting money and literally accusing us of not caring for roleplay at all. Having been in this community a reasonable amount of time myself, I think it is a statement that shoots you in the foot somewhat. But I digress. I will leave the evidence in the hands of staff. I felt as though given the fact that I was almost entirely silent during the liaison proceeds, it made sense for me to get a few points on the table that haven’t already been mentioned.

 
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They said to me, or at least I understood it as this, that it was a main factor. Obviously they wanted the RP but also wanted money as they have little funds as a gang.
Absolutely the point I was trying to make. No more explanation needed. RP was of course extremely important to us, if it wasn't we wouldn't have made such an effort - but of course money is an objective of ours.

In the video I was completely happy with letting you stay at the prison. At this time I didn't quite understand the full scenario and hadn't read the document yet. However when you were pushing for the 100 gold bars, that's something i'm not happy with doing. I wanted to clarify this with someone else who has more authority. Your local PC wouldn't open the countries gold reserve on their own really. 
I feel that if you had an issue with the amount we requested you should have expressed that it was too much. That way, I would have known what the problem was and I would have been willing to negotiate a counter-offer. It was my first HM, and I don't really know what is a reasonable amount. I heard that one group got 80 bars for a hazmat roleplay or something, so I based it off of that. My logic was ~9 people, just over 1 mil each. If that was too much, you should have let me know in RP.

I asked you Dredd because I wanted clarification on what to do, to stop me getting moaned at for it (by SI etc)
I thought SI was required to authorize the granting of rebel access to the HM, but I guess I was wrong on that front. Even so, you still felt you needed senior permission so I stand by my issues with Dredd. If officers are to look to him for advice something needs to change. 

 
[SIZE=14.6667px]"wasting their time" and begin to leave. I would specifically like @Rossssto explain this. [/SIZE]
As I believe was agreed, nobody knew what they wanted out of the whole thing. No point going over the same thing over and over. 

Also to be noted, in the shooting part, I was hotmicing on TS and I never instructed anyone to shoot. Infact I too was dodging rubbers

 
I thought it seemed about time to give some input so thank you to Neo for granting me permission. As is quite clear by now I took it upon myself to record our discussion within the liaison room. To get all the groundwork in place, I was not one of the individuals on the ground at the time and was mainly micromanaging the operation from a helicopter. I was asked to land once or twice and did certainly get involved with RP (so I would consider myself informed enough to give my view) but I will admit I have not re-watched the entire 40 minute video at this point in time.

Having got all of that out of the way I just have a few points to make. On the subject of:

I will admit I wasn't aware of this. I would suggest that at the most a ticket under the public order act might have been appropriate. Maybe if the now quite riled up group of people were told they were to be charged under that act, they would have calmed down a bit. About the time from when we were shot onward, our comms were less than ideal so getting order together to keep the RP up was exceptionally difficult and we were trying to discuss what was going on so that it would be resolved (I would suggest it is only fair given the situation.) I would suggest that about the time where RDM took place was about the time where the RP story was off of the table. You even say yourself that you didn't want to send us to prison because the RP was good. If it was that good, why would you not go along with it instead of making the arrest? I get the command chain exists and you were told to be an SI but he was seemingly quite misinformed so if you felt so strongly at the time, maybe you should have made that more clear.

Beyond that, the main point of concern that leads me to post here are the fact that we made it very clear what our problem with the situation was. To that end I didn't expect the officers that we allowed to outnumber us so that they all got a fair say, to complain that we were "wasting their time" and begin to leave. I would specifically like @Rossssto explain this. I can understand how it can be easy to underestimate the magnitude of such a thing until you see the video yourself, but even so, I find it rather insulting that we took our time to resolve the situation and were pretty patient while everyone who wanted a say got one and all we got was that were are time wasting. Given the reaction of the management team in response to the evidence I would suggest that even if you feel you acted correctly, acting is such a blasé fashion is not a good idea especially from someone who is speaking in a very official capacity such as SI Dredd.

Secondly, I wonder why the disagreement between Dredd and Laurens couldn't have waited until after the discussion was concluded as I noticed a number of situations in which Salty would get a word in and make his point only to have the various officers talking over each other. It felt to me that although there was someone leading the operation, we don’t really seem to know who it was. Laurens says that he didn’t tell them to shoot, fair enough. Dredd wasn’t in game, fair enough. But one would like to think that the officers that opened fire were given some kind of direction (as they acted somewhat in unison) and didn’t simply take it upon themselves. I would suggest that following the command chain more strictly would have helped to alleviate any issues. Laurens is perfectly capable of making the decisions on his own, being Inspector should be proof enough. While I understand you didn't want any problems from higher ups, you should be able to trust someone of the rank of inspector who was more involved. I get the feeling from that short chat log that Dredd wasn’t really informed that we had already been RPing for an hour and probably thought we just arrived. I’m sure he can elaborate. As much as I am greatly disappointed by a number of the comments made, I wouldn’t wish to see someone held responsible for the fault of another so I await explanation.

Other than that, I really don't enjoy spending over an hour on an RP situation only to be told that I'm only in it for the money. When there are allegations being placed on the table I would like to think we can discuss them rather than trying to cover our backs with clearly nonsense comments such as that. Who would have thought that when I start a bank robbery and ask for 100 gold bars I want some money. Clearly we want money, but we have enough to be ok with failure if we didn't earn it with high quality RP there is a line between wanting money and literally accusing us of not caring for roleplay at all. Having been in this community a reasonable amount of time myself, I think it is a statement that shoots you in the foot somewhat. But I digress. I will leave the evidence in the hands of staff. I felt as though given the fact that I was almost entirely silent during the liaison proceeds, it made sense for me to get a few points on the table that haven’t already been mentioned.
I understand what u mean by INS the thing was i wasnt involved enough. I didnt read the document nothing and tbh i didnt even wanted to process you since i wasnt aware of the entire situation. But because i AM an INS i still found it essential for me to process you which i did and in my opinion i didnt really do anything wrong. I was told the decision was made to arrest and process and that is what i did

 
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