Report a Player - CI Phoenix [7680] - RDM

Your In-game name

Dwarf

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

CI Phoenix [7680]

Date of the incident

31/10/18

Time of the incident (GMT)

1740

What best describes this incident ?

RDM

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1

Please (in detail) describe the incident

I was asked by a Poseidon member to go steal the police car outside the border as I was going to get payed for the job. So i went around the outside of the border to sneak up to the police car to start lock-picking it. Phoenix at the time was talking to Poseidon about some things. When I got the keys to the car I jumped into the car and reversed it I tried to turned it around. When the car came to a stop Phoenix opened fire and killed me without talking to me.
He said to Poseidon that he had shot me because he had no means to chase me down. (He stole my car i had no way of chasing him so i shot him) Therefore rightfully killing me. As you can see from the video he shoots me instead of the tires. We tried to resolve the situation in TeamSpeak but what he said didn't add up from my perspective that's why I am submitting a report so it is up for staff to decide.

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGXS3NeWifI
This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

Yes

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

Hi Dwarf, I’m confused as to why this has become a player report, given that I have spoken to you at length in the police liaison that I called straight after the incident, and also in a staff chat. As far as I was aware you had acknowledged that this was a mistake and you accepted that there was no malicious intent from my side, furthermore I was asked to join a staff help with Dwarf and that ended with him agreeing that this was a genuine mistake on my part.

Compensation was offered to him, but as he had not lost anything. I asked for him to confirm this by repeating the question to which he told me that he had not lost anything as Poseidon had taken him to Athira hospital where he was helped up by medics.

As I already explained to him and his friend, in front of staff, I had a heat of the moment surge of adrenaline, which caused me to forget to use my push to talk button, when I initiated on him for stealing and attempting to drive away in my vehicle. At first his friend was questioning a police rule, stating that I was lying as he could not find a rule that gives me permission to shoot at a vehicle if I have no means of pursuing it.

3 Minute Chase (Rule)

A civilians vehicle's tires may only be shot at after 3 minutes of chasing so long as verbal initiation has been given. There are a few exceptions to this rule*:

• If your vehicle is stolen and there is no other way to pursue it.
  

After getting this cleared up, his friend seemed to have an issue with me shooting his friend instead of the vehicles tyres, I explained that I am a terrible shot and that I used full zoom on the weapon, was aiming at the front tyres and sprayed, but the recoil pushed the gun up and a stray bullet from the gun must have hit him by chance. Once this was understood, his friend went on to ask me for locations of my push to talk keys for the game, I explained that it was mouse button 5, to which I must admit I’m an still perplexed about how this has anything to do with the situation.

After this was all explained in a Staff help room, Dwarf implied he had fully understood that there was nothing malicious about it, and that it was a genuine mistake. Once again I acknowledged that I had made a mistake, apologised and said that if he had lost anything then I would happily compensate him for that, but as he had lost nothing, we both agreed I couldn’t.

From my point of view, I got caught up in the moment, adrenaline took over and this led to me making a split second decision based on my police training, that if my vehicle is stolen and I have no other way of pursuing it, then I am able to open fire on the vehicles tyres and unfortunately on this occasion my bullets somehow managed to hit the vehicle’s driver which was not my intent.

It was my understanding from the manner in which they left the staff help room, that it was understood by both parties to be a genuine mistake and that he would not be taking this any further to a PCC or a report. The only question I have is why he has pushed this to a report, after accepting that this was a genuine mistake. What is he looking to gain from this?

I am not sure what else I can do from here, except acknowledge that I made a genuine mistake and apologise to him once again. I can only explain that I will try and not let this happen again.

When I talked to you on teamspeak I said that I would think about the situation and your statements. I was polite and listened to you. I think you misunderstood my friendly behavior for acceptance. (1) From my point of view your statements are contradictory. In the police liaison you said that you were talking in the wrong channel. (You could have not meant in-game channels because you were talking to poseidon a second earlier. So I thought you meant that you talked in teamspeak instead of in-game) Later in the support channels you said that you have voice activation on teamspeak and push-to-talk on the mouse for in-game voice-chat. Changing your statement from changing channels to that you forgot to press the button for talking in-game.When asked, you said that you did not record. Therefore, it is up to debate if you are telling the truth. (2) You said that you shot me by mistake. But reviewing the video it looks like you lift your gun up after the first shot and then steadily spray down the driver. Even-though you say that your training kicked in, you did not hit the tires. You killed me without saying anything to me before nor after I was shot. Instead, you left me behind dying with minimal interaction. (3) I had no rifle and did not threaten you. For roleplay sake you could have used non lethal force or call in back up for a pursuit. In liaison you did not provide any solutions how you could solve this kind of situations without resorting to low quality roleplay. Leaving me under the impression that you would resort to low quality roleplay in the future to "win" a situation. (4) You say in video that you were under pressure to retrieve stolen police cars by your command (5:20). Along the lines that a higher ranking officer gives you a bunch of shit to get the police cars back. It seems you repeat what you do earlier in the video: Retrieving the police car with no roleplay and saying sorry later. You have a strong motive to stop me from stealing the car no matter the cost. I am new to the server. I like the server and community. In liaison and support channels we heard the opinion of people who are in the police and spoke on your behalf. You are either very unlucky or you were not honest. I think the situation would benefit from a neutral third party perspective. Therefore, I have submitted the report.

Your report is currently being reviewed, Please be patient while the evidence is reviewed

Please keep checking this report regularly just in case the reviewing staff member has any questions

Thank you for your report and you doing your part to keep our community clean!

Phoenix_025 said:

3 Minute Chase (Rule)

A civilians vehicle's tires may only be shot at after 3 minutes of chasing so long as verbal initiation has been given. There are a few exceptions to this rule*:

• If your vehicle is stolen and there is no other way to pursue it.
  

Click to expand...

This rule, I would like to clarify as there have been innumerate situations in which it has been misunderstood. 
This rule is a police rule, it does not in any instance supersede server rules. The intention behind this rule as far as I can discern is to encourage roleplay in the form of police chases. Effectively, discouraging police from standing at the road side and disabling a civilians vehicle when the moment they see something criminal.

However in certain instances - such as your police vehicle being your only method of transportation and it being stolen from you, you may shoot vehicle tires before 3 minutes of chasing has passed. You MUST still give verbal initiation. You MUST still give time to comply.

Now I must stress, that if you have received verbal tyre initiation and as a result of the gunfire you die, that is in all cases your fault, and not the fault of the shooter. 
That being said, the shooter must be attempting to actually disable your vehicle. 

It is difficult to comment on the shooting from the angle of the recording. All we know for certain is that police cars are in no way bullet proof, but it does sound like you don't manage to hit the wheel of the vehicle once. 

@Phoenix_025 it was indicated to me that you may have been streaming during this incident, is this not the case? 

I am a Dwarf Digging a Hole said:

(2) You said that you shot me by mistake. But reviewing the video it looks like you lift your gun up after the first shot and then steadily spray down the driver. Even-though you say that your training kicked in, you did not hit the tires. You killed me without saying anything to me before nor after I was shot. Instead, you left me behind dying with minimal interaction. (3) I had no rifle and did not threaten you. For roleplay sake you could have used non lethal force or call in back up for a pursuit. In liaison you did not provide any solutions how you could solve this kind of situations without resorting to low quality roleplay. Leaving me under the impression that you would resort to low quality roleplay in the future to "win" a situation. 

Click to expand...

@I am a Dwarf Digging a Hole

If Phoenix was nothing but apologetic, admitting that he made some kind of mistake. Irrespective of if his story has altered in a minor way relative to new factors he might have only just thought about/considered/been brought to his attention due to the footage.
He knows he is in the wrong, and he has offered reparations for it, presumably you declined these reparations on the basis that you didn't lose anything?

It has been brought to my attention that there was quite a lengthy discussion in the join for support staff rooms in which a member of staff acted as a third party. So I will now ask why did you feel it was necessary to put up a player report? 
If you feel as though you have not received a non biased staff opinion, then I ask what are you hoping the outcome of this report will be? 

Qrow said:

@Phoenix_025 it was indicated to me that you may have been streaming during this incident, is this not the case? 

Click to expand...

I was not streaming at the time, it was on my day off.

Qrow said:

You MUST still give verbal initiation. You MUST still give time to comply.

Click to expand...

In the hand book it  is clearly marked that i must make verbal initiation before I can fire. I was simply clarifying and proving that there is a rule there that allows me to shoot if I have no way to chase. But i agree Verbal initiation needs to be made.

Firstly, I will address the reason as to why I have decided to file a formal report despite having discussed the matter in Teamspeak. I am not satisfied that Phoenix has been completely honest throughout, nor am I satisfied that a conclusion was reached during the discussion. This report will allow a fair and independent review by an unbiased party, which will ensure any appropriate actions are carried out whilst allowing lessons to be drawn to prevent a similar incident from occurring in the future.

Phoenix has made several references to the conclusion of the conversation held in liaison, however if any were reached, they were one sided only. On reflection after having the opportunity to review the video, I have now reached my own conclusion.

Phoenix has said that his actions were a result of the circumstances. He has also given a variety of excuses; such as not pressing the PTT button, using the wrong channel, having poor aim, acting in accordance with the police rule regarding shooting out the tyres as referenced above, and due to pressures placed on him from his superiors. These to me feel insubstantial and inconsistent. I now feel like I am being attacked and am standing trial for wishing to file a report against an incident, which by Phoenix’s own admission, was RDM.

Phoenix has stated that he has been nothing but apologetic, however Phoenix’s dialogue throughout the incident and post-incident, as evidenced in the video would indicate a different view. From my perspective, I believe Phoenix has been defensively attempting to justify his actions rather than make a heartfelt apology.

In conclusion, I believe that Phoenix handled the situation poorly and in contradiction to both police and server rules. Rather than offer high quality roleplay or use other means of resolving the issue of his police car being stolen, he resorted to lethal force. This is damaging to the ethos of the community and therefore I believe that he is unfit to be a part of it until he has sufficiently reflected on his actions.

I am a Dwarf Digging a Hole said:

Firstly, I will address the reason as to why I have decided to file a formal report despite having discussed the matter in Teamspeak. I am not satisfied that Phoenix has been completely honest throughout, nor am I satisfied that a conclusion was reached during the discussion. This report will allow a fair and independent review by an unbiased party, which will ensure any appropriate actions are carried out whilst allowing lessons to be drawn to prevent a similar incident from occurring in the future.

Click to expand...

I am a Dwarf Digging a Hole said:

This is damaging to the ethos of the community and therefore I believe that he is unfit to be a part of it until he has sufficiently reflected on his actions.

Click to expand...

Very noble of you, being such a new player to want lessons to be taught to the community. 
 

I am a Dwarf Digging a Hole said:

I now feel like I am being attacked and am standing trial for wishing to file a report against an incident, which by Phoenix’s own admission, was RDM.

Click to expand...

I am free to and will continue to do so at my discretion, challenge the credibility and reasoning behind your report as I see fit. If you would like to be taken at face value, then I would suggest that perhaps you did not want an unbiased opinion. If I had the notion that you were trying to make a kangaroo court out of the report system and use it to your own ends to impact another player then I would act appropriately. 

@Phoenix_025 I think you likely have an understanding of the severity of this report against you. Especially when taking into account the recent report against you. Is there anything else you would like to add? 

Just once again apologise to Dwarf about the incident again. I wont be making the same mistake again.

Report Accepted 

@Phoenix_025

Phoenix, you have been a member of our community for a long time. It is no secret to me that at times you have a penchant to be abrasive in communications with those you haven't spoken to before. Based on my discussions with other staff members I feel like this may have been a possibility.

You are a high ranking member of the police and serve our NHS faction in the upper echelons. I find it difficult to believe that you would knowingly and willingly commit RDM. None the less, and irrespective of the circumstances, this is where we find ourselves.

On this occasion, I do not feel that you following the unban appeal process would be to your service, or to the service of the community.
I believe you have a crystal clear idea of what you did wrong and have been nothing less than apologetic for your actions and am inclined to believe that you made a grievous error in this case. 
That being said Phoenix, this will be your final warning from forum reports of this nature. I.e. in which another player is harmed and the course of role-play is averted. Further infractions of this nature. will result in your removal from our game servers for a length of time. 

Phoenix_025 said:

Just once again apologise to Dwarf about the incident again. I wont be making the same mistake again.

Click to expand...

You had best not. 

Thank you for doing your part in keeping the community clean.

Your report has been approved and action has been taken against the reported player.

If you are out of pocket due to this case please now open a compensation request here, Do make sure to mention this report.