Jump to content
Experience the Altis Life
keyboard_arrow_right
ALTIS LIFE 1
...
ALTIS LIFE 2
...
DAYZ UK
...
TEAMSPEAK
...
...

We are currently undergoing maintenance

The forums are available for use, yet please do not expect full functionality.

Tuna

Player loyalties and admin treatments.

Recommended Posts

Tuna
Posted (edited)

I accept that this is definitely a risky topic to approach and it is likely that this thread will turn to flame and so I urge people to avoid posting small one-liners and write detailed responses (not rants), to help this be a mature discussion and to walk away if things get heated, and would like to request that flame posts are removed to help this discussion to continue.

Now, to begin.

Over the past several months it seems there has been an increase in the bans of long-term players. Now I completely understand that some of these have been long-awaiting and much deserved, but others I have had some questions over. Several of these players have had multiple warnings, bans, and chances before and seemingly are not able to keep themselves within the rules; or simply do not care to try. Others though have had a clean record, do well to promote roleplay and hang-around with "good" groups of players. Some of these have been clear-cut rule breaks whilst others seem to be slip-ups that have resulted in a ban.

My issue is primarily with the latter, although slightly with the former. Where is the loyalty when admins deal with such cases? It seems that newer players who haven't read the rules get away with rule breaks despite obvious direction to read the rules. I have no issue with this - but breaking the rules straight away is allowed yet breaking a rule after hundreds, even thousands of hours will land you a punishment? As a member of this community for over 3 years now I am constantly worried that a slight slip-up could tarnish my profile forever, and lead to harsh punishments instantly in the future as a result of it.

The admin team seem to be more interested in 'making an example out of people', rather than treating them with fairness that they deserve from their past behaviour. I would like to think that my contributions to the server and other players have benefitted people; but I will still be banned over a bad word I might say in the heat of the moment to 'be made an example of'. After thousands of hours I will be treated worse than a brand new player, rather than being treated with any of the loyalty I feel I deserve. We are all human beings and we all make mistakes - but it feels that that is not an excuse anymore. Plenty of admins have had bans, warnings, or questionable situations in the past and I have no issue with that because we're humans.. but another player could do exactly the same and yet not get away with it. Of course, admins have been made examples of in the past... deliberate racism, exploiting - these have resulted in removal from the staff team but no other punishment and liberty to play on the server. But I could be permanently banned for less and never be able to play here again.

Breaking a rule and saying "sorry I've been here for a long time" is not a reason not to be banned.. but one slip-up in thousands of hours of playtime is seemingly unacceptable.

All I'm asking is that long-time players are treated with a little more respect and consideration of their loyalty. I fail to understand why I would be banned instantly, without even being talked to - for something a newer player would get away with a verbal warning for.
This has been something I have wanted to ask for a long time, and is no way connected to today's events (I have not even been online).

Thank you for reading and please keep responses constructive.

Edited by Tuna
  • Like 42
  • Love 4
  • Eggplant 2
  • Facepalm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Charles Vane

Ill say what i have been told many times:

"We are all just a player ID on the database"

  • Like 2
  • Sad 2
  • Feelsbadman 17
  • Hype 2
  • PagChomp 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Simon Ross

Another thing I would like to add on to this is generally that when a long term faction player is reported, they can get off with a less harsh punishment/ get away with greater mistakes than a long term rebel player, and rebels generally seem to get harsher punishment than those in factions who have given a similar amount to the server in terms of activity, rp, and livelihood(the difference being that the faction person obviously has a couple more ts tags)

  • Like 4
  • Facepalm 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LiL Jeep
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Simon Ross said:

Another thing I would like to add on to this is generally that when a long term faction player is reported, they can get off with a less harsh punishment/ get away with greater mistakes than a long term rebel player, and rebels generally seem to get harsher punishment than those in factions who have given a similar amount to the server in terms of activity, rp, and livelihood(the difference being that the faction person obviously has a couple more ts tags)

Did you even read the post? and if anything my ban a while back disproves this more than anything, its literally a myth. get over it.
(not trying to flame the post)

Edited by LiL Jeep
  • Like 1
  • Love 1
  • Hype 1
  • Facepalm 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stavik

OP asked for this

11 hours ago, Tuna said:

I urge people to avoid posting small one-liners and write detailed responses (not rants), to help this be a mature discussion and to walk away if things get heated, and would like to request that flame posts are removed to help this discussion to continue.


Already people are doing the opposite.

 

  • Like 1
  • Facepalm 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
_nomad

This is a very interestign topic, and my first thinking was to go the easy route, "Obviously if you've played a lot you should know the rules, that's why newer players get a chance where older more eperienced players wouldn't". But then you started talking abou the slip-ups and I agree with you. I have been here (on and off) since late 2016, that's a long time now and it means a lot of play time on the server. What are the chances that I over all these hours make a mistake, compared to someone who's only played 50 hours? It's rather big.

This of course doesn't mean I should get away with everything and you certainly don't think so in your post either but just looking at this from a pure logical stand point, the more play time you have the bigger the chance that somewhere you will make or have made a mistake because you've had more chances where mistakes could've been made.

Interesting points and well written!

  • Like 5
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ant Arni

It should totally matter about intentions, and some admins will allow you to get away with things that others wouldn't

For example let's say your car flips over and you use a car to ram it back onto it's wheels some staff will be ok with it understanding why you did it however some would urge to ban you for VDM. Or you might be stuck inside a rock so you get restrained to drag you out of the rock, it depends on which staff member see's it on whether or not it's considered exploiting and worthy of a punishment.

I think it shouldn't matter if you're new or not, it should just matter about intention and whether or not it's actually ruining someone's experience.

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dan953

It could be set up with points. 3 points is permanent ban. 2 is temporary. 1 is a warning.

Then every 6months (however long) a point is wiped. This means players constantly breaking rules will be punished whereas the odd slip up now and again is ok.

  • Like 4
  • Facepalm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Simen
1 hour ago, Ant Arni said:

It should totally matter about intentions, and some admins will allow you to get away with things that others wouldn't

For example let's say your car flips over and you use a car to ram it back onto it's wheels some staff will be ok with it understanding why you did it however some would urge to ban you for VDM. Or you might be stuck inside a rock so you get restrained to drag you out of the rock, it depends on which staff member see's it on whether or not it's considered exploiting and worthy of a punishment.

I think it shouldn't matter if you're new or not, it should just matter about intention and whether or not it's actually ruining someone's experience.

This, precisely this.

I cant say I always follow the rules, but I never do anything that would give me the upper hand. Anything I'd do would be harmless and usually gives people a laugh.

If the rule break is harmless and the intention is to solve a problem or create a fun scenario, then a ban should be the last thing that pops up in the admins head when (s)he spectates it.

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kayn

i agree with some of the points but to be fair, admins usually go easier on people who have been here long and have had a slip up.

i had a big slip up just a couple of days ago that could of easily got me banned but @Stavik put me aside and talked to me instead.

even if they get banned thats just how the system works, they usually get unbanned rather quickly again, its just a security measure they have to do.

  • Hype 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SALV

Don't break the rules and you wont get banned. 😁

 

Get me on that staff team already

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
  • Haha 4
  • Hype 1
  • Facepalm 7
  • PagChomp 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James Travers

To me it makes sense for the punishments to be harsher for someone who has been here longer. There more experienced and should know better than to break rules. I have noticed and Vlad said it in some of his streams that staff are way more lenient now than they were say 3 years ago when I joined and I've definitely seen a change in how the staff team deal with bans, in my opinion it's much better now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nate Han
4 minutes ago, James Travers said:

To me it makes sense for the punishments to be harsher for someone who has been here longer. There more experienced and should know better than to break rules. I have noticed and Vlad said it in some of his streams that staff are way more lenient now than they were say 3 years ago when I joined and I've definitely seen a change in how the staff team deal with bans, in my opinion it's much better now

I mean it goes both ways doesn't it. On the one hand if you've been here longer you should know better and therefore staff should be less lenient. On the other hand, youve spent more time, and so the odds are that an accidental rule break is much more likely.

Personally I agree Ant Arni, I feel that when staff are handing out punishments intent should play a big role. I.e. was it someone shooting one of their friends with whom they were messing about on rs with, or is it someone rdming a hobo because they can. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YoCo

I think a lot of what the issues stem from is the inconsistency, what one admin will ban for, another might not.

 

i personally feel that a solution to this would for admins to stop doing ‘on the spot bans’ apart from the obvious mass rdm’ers and dupers. 

 

But if people are involved in a situation, and everyone is enjoying themselves, and individuals aren’t abusing the server for personal gain then I don’t see the need for a person to be banned. I believe in the phrase ‘no harm no foul’. All admins record, so instead of the impromptu bans perhaps admins could submit reports themselves if they feel a rule has been broken. Might seem a bit of a lengthy, but not nearly as lengthy as the process of getting unbanned (believe me, I’ve been there). At least this would give people the opportunity to defend their actions and then reasonable action to be taken.

 

Let’s take for example a recent report in which the accused used a derogatory term, the reporter was asked if he felt upset by the term, he said no. And as such the reported wasn’t banned. However if an admin spectating this in game had heard it, I could most certainly say he would have been banned.

 

 

Tl:dr- too much inconsistency with impromptu bans. Get staff to submit reports to be reviewed so that there is sufficient consensus of a rulebreak with a victim.

 

(obviously I know this suggestion is very basic and doesn’t take into consideration the need to insta ban; racists, mass rdmers, dupers etc. But it’s something I believe would help keep the server from banning long term members)

 

remember. It’s just a game. 

  • Like 9
  • Facepalm 1
  • PagChomp 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WhoisDan
11 hours ago, Ant Arni said:

It should totally matter about intentions, and some admins will allow you to get away with things that others wouldn't

For example let's say your car flips over and you use a car to ram it back onto it's wheels some staff will be ok with it understanding why you did it however some would urge to ban you for VDM. Or you might be stuck inside a rock so you get restrained to drag you out of the rock, it depends on which staff member see's it on whether or not it's considered exploiting and worthy of a punishment.

I think it shouldn't matter if you're new or not, it should just matter about intention and whether or not it's actually ruining someone's experience.

Spot on. I've seen players banned for jokingly running their mates over in cars (where, I should add, it was quite clear that they are just fucking around and not actually VDMing). The context of the situation is crucial and the rules should always be flexible if there is no ill intent. For example if you watch Unlucky George's videos, particularly in the earlier ones you'll notice him breaking all sorts of rules, but he was always excused by the admins because it was all in the name of fun. The same treatment that was always applied to him should be applied to everyone else.

5 hours ago, YoCo said:

I think a lot of what the issues stem from is the inconsistency, what one admin will ban for, another might not.

I also agree with this, which is why I always thought the staff team was better when it was smaller and tighter-knit. There was less coverage admittedly and there was still some inconsistency, but far less than there has been in the past year or two since everybody and their nan was recruited into staff. Back in the days when it was split into game admins, admins and management, there were never more than 12 or so people that were part of staff (including management) and it was so much easier to communicate and get a general consus from each other when discussing bans. While I do see benefits of having a larger team, it makes it harder to communicate and manage, thus causing consistency problems.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stavik

First and foremost i would like to thank you @Tuna for encouraging mature and well written response to a topic like this. This is very important to keep the topic alive and this will summon a proper response from the staff team. (This is it). 

 

Now this is the offical response from the Staff Team Leads and the Staff Team:

On 21/08/2019 at 23:50, Tuna said:

I accept that this is definitely a risky topic to approach and it is likely that this thread will turn to flame and so I urge people to avoid posting small one-liners and write detailed responses (not rants), to help this be a mature discussion and to walk away if things get heated, and would like to request that flame posts are removed to help this discussion to continue.

Now, to begin.

Over the past several months it seems there has been an increase in the bans of long-term players. Now I completely understand that some of these have been long-awaiting and much deserved, but others I have had some questions over. Several of these players have had multiple warnings, bans, and chances before and seemingly are not able to keep themselves within the rules; or simply do not care to try. Others though have had a clean record, do well to promote roleplay and hang-around with "good" groups of players. Some of these have been clear-cut rule breaks whilst others seem to be slip-ups that have resulted in a ban.

My issue is primarily with the latter, although slightly with the former. Where is the loyalty when admins deal with such cases? It seems that newer players who haven't read the rules get away with rule breaks despite obvious direction to read the rules. I have no issue with this - but breaking the rules straight away is allowed yet breaking a rule after hundreds, even thousands of hours will land you a punishment? As a member of this community for over 3 years now I am constantly worried that a slight slip-up could tarnish my profile forever, and lead to harsh punishments instantly in the future as a result of it.

The admin team seem to be more interested in 'making an example out of people', rather than treating them with fairness that they deserve from their past behaviour. I would like to think that my contributions to the server and other players have benefitted people; but I will still be banned over a bad word I might say in the heat of the moment to 'be made an example of'. After thousands of hours I will be treated worse than a brand new player, rather than being treated with any of the loyalty I feel I deserve. We are all human beings and we all make mistakes - but it feels that that is not an excuse anymore. Plenty of admins have had bans, warnings, or questionable situations in the past and I have no issue with that because we're humans.. but another player could do exactly the same and yet not get away with it. Of course, admins have been made examples of in the past... deliberate racism, exploiting - these have resulted in removal from the staff team but no other punishment and liberty to play on the server. But I could be permanently banned for less and never be able to play here again.

Breaking a rule and saying "sorry I've been here for a long time" is not a reason not to be banned.. but one slip-up in thousands of hours of playtime is seemingly unacceptable.

All I'm asking is that long-time players are treated with a little more respect and consideration of their loyalty. I fail to understand why I would be banned instantly, without even being talked to - for something a newer player would get away with a verbal warning for.

thiongy.png.5681243aef1b080494dbb99c31891520.png

After you are done loading the mission file, the picture up above is the first one that you get given^.

Quote

"This is a serious roleplay server so please make sure you read our rules at Roleplay.co.uk/rules. Please do ensure you read the rules. otherwise you may find yourself removed from the server."

This is the point where you agree to our rules. Roleplay starts as soon as you load up at the spawn location and all rules apply.
Now the issue that you mention is that newer players "get away" with rulebreak. Of course the racism and the more "serious rules" are a no-no and the Staff Team will promptly get rid of the most serious cases, but as other communities and places have a different ruleset and/or mindset  than our own, we base our intervention on the knowledge of the player.

If the he or she is new, there is a fair chance they have come from a different community or the milsim aspect of ArmA 3 ( This is a MILSIM game, don't forget that). This is where educating and informing the new players about our ruleset is important. Generally the new players take this to heart. The rest go on to break more rules and subsequently get caught, if they don't immediately swear at, threaten, or berate the staff member dealing with them leading to their immediate ban. If they want to come back, they need to appeal.

Now let's look at the more experienced part of the community. Hundreds, maybe even thousands of hours on the server (You guys don't hear this enough. Thank you for staying with us. You are the community). Lets call them "The Experienced". After so much time on the server, maybe time in JFS rooms and maybe even having been banned and unbanned. You have gone through the process, so your view and understanding of the ruleset is different from someone that is new. A ban put in place is really up to the discretion of the STAFF MEMBER and alot of factors come into to play here. You have touched on this alittle but everything from warnings, attitude and have he/she done it before etc... I am not going to list everything, for obvious reasons but i hope you get the point. The rules are there fora  reason..

I do understand that this might seem confusing but alot of work goes into it... it really does.

 

Quote

All I'm asking is that long-time players are treated with a little more respect and consideration of their loyalty. I fail to understand why I would be banned instantly, without even being talked to - for something a newer player would get away with a verbal warning for.

We don't have to talk to you. It is preferred to maybe educate.  But we really do not have to. We the leads push for this and leniency in many meetings we do have as it is the preferred way. But if there is a blatant exploit, duping or even VDM. We know exactly whats going on and more than likely a ban is the right choice. 

Now to the little point that bugs me a little, and I'm going all out drama-queen on you. " long-time players are treated with a little more respect and consideration of their loyalty." I can guarantee the amount of respect we get for doing this in our spare time, is nothing. We know people talk shit about us, constant personal attacks, videos edited of us that people laugh off. We in the staff team have learned over time to brush these kinds of things off. We give you all the respect we can until someone throws all their toys out the pram. This is when people don't get to play here anymore. I have kinda forgotten what its like to have this thing called respect..

Players of this community will always have the respect of the staff team, because without the players.. There would never be a community.
 

 

Now this post feels like there is a bit of disconnect from the community to the staff team. So let me be the one to open up abit.                                                                         Some brave souls might say we don't do anything... But we do..

Free Weekend in 2018: 74 bans, mostly scriptkiddies.

freewee.png.4b1c9219d008d9161bf3956ba211a80e.png

Discount in September 2018: Again, mostly scriptkiddies.

wewew.png.de390fce75320c12b5d4dd3c12594fc1.png

Autum Sale 2018: Again, scripkiddies.

 banban.png.f1da7c40a348deac7090d9b8f4cabdd4.png

More recent numbers can be given but it would take some time due to other factors that have come into play.

 

These times are some of our most challenging moments. Hacks/Cheats have been a huge problem. Fortunately, our development team worked incredibly hard to crack down on it. While you haven't seen the kind of content updates we saw at the start of the year, this was the focus of our team. Since these updates there has been a wave of calm. Yes a few incidents here and there but they are minor by comparison. Many, many more are caught before they ever become a problem and that happens due to the efforts of the staff team.


Now to just end this post here.. Feel free to ask us any questions in this topic and we will answer to the best of our ability. Ask us here in this post to make sure people do see it.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TCK Pee Money

BJOKAVOV DOWN!

 

I feel like that they already respect the long term members, well atleast in my case i feel like i've been given more then enough chances over the years. 12 or 13 bans and i'm still able to play.

 

Fair play to them though i don't play any other servers but i can't imagine many of them giving me that amount of chances.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Eggplant 1
  • Hype 1
  • Facepalm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hapi

I would say 1 fuck up every month is a good record, when you take the play time, in the heat of the moment you will fuck up somehow.

  • Like 2
  • PagChomp 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Aiden

As an addition to what Stavik said and off the back of what Pee Money said, the fact you've been here a long time should factor into whether or not you get banned for a rulebreak, but not in the way that you want unfortunately. Given that the benefit of having been here for a long time is that you become the person to use your experience and playtime in liaison to advise newer players that they've broken the rules, as I often hear in liaisons "Listen mate I've been here for X years I know the rules and you [Insert rule here]" The flipside of this however is that because you know the rules, we expect you to follow them, moreso than the average wet behind the ears hobo fresh off the boat.

The decision to issue a ban is determined on a variety of factors as Stavik has pointed out in his post, as @Ant Arni made a good point about intent and context, it is worth mentioning that they are infact taken into account when opting to ban/warn or take no action.

The recent example being vaulting. I should hope that upon asking any person who considers themselves a longstanding member would be able to tell me without hesitation that you shouldn't vault through objects, walls, doors and gates etc.. the list goes on because it's deemed to be exploiting. That goes double if you can't open them via normal means, prisons (be it Poseidon or police), faction specific gates, houses, towers and everything else that is "locked" Triple if your doing it infront of others to whom you should, as a longstanding player, be setting the example.

Below is a sample situation under the basis of the staff teams inform and educate process.

Player A with 3 hours on the server VDMs someone threatening to shoot him because he hasn't read the rules.
Player B with 300 hours on the server VDMs someone threatening to shoot him despite knowing about the VDM rule.

In my opinion Player B has committed the worse offense and frankly deserves to be banned because he has broken a rule he knows exists whereas Player A is ignorant of the rules, because he doesn't know, will more than likely be pulled to one side by an admin, asked "Why do you think I've pulled you to one side" and then the ensuing conversation that generally results in them being kicked off to read the rules with a timer on return. If they return within that timer they get banned for breaking the rule, if they come back after the timer a note will be placed on them to tell other staff they'd been advised to read the rules and further rulebreaks are to result in a ban. 

Though I feel that you should be looked upon more harshly when a longstanding player obviously breaks the rules, I don't feel the same holds true for minor slip-ups and unban appeals, unless you have a particularly lengthy record (In this case you get denied or perm'd), your long service to the community as a player should definitely be taken into account, not to suggest of course that you shouldn't be held accountable for the rules that you have broken.

This is where @TCK Pee Money is an example (not necessarily a good example), he has been here for a very long time and accrued a lot of bans which he has appealed and got unbanned. Now that isn't to say he has never complained about a ban, or that he hasn't ever done rather silly things after having been unbanned, but ultimately every time he has been banned, he gets back on the figurative horse, makes his appeal and gets on with it. 

Whilst on the topic of post-ban behaviour, there are certain things that have become increasingly common, direct or indirect status updates when a member of a group gets banned, which often results in warning points, further posts/replies/actions that lead to further bans and warning points. It's all a little unnecessary, longstanding players should know who to contact if they have an issue with a ban/report. Incase that isn't clear, or perhaps you didn't know the "correct proceedure" is to send a private message on the forums with the nature of your issue in a single message with all of the staff leads as recipients, so we can all view it, ask questions then deal with the issue.

The best post ban behaviour I've seen in a long time from a longstanding member was @Jason Detiri who in 2y10m had never had even so much as a warning, got banned for rule 2.5. He never made a sly comment about it on the forums, didn't immediately message a lead, didn't try to lie or pull the wool over our eyes, just got on with his appeal. Out in the open with the truth of the situation, with what seemed to me to be a genuine apology. 

There were people who were genuinely shocked that he was so truthful in his appeal, myself included, but it left an impression, hence the fact I can remember it two months down the line. 

To respond directly to some comments

On 21/08/2019 at 23:16, Simon Ross said:

Another thing I would like to add on to this is generally that when a long term faction player is reported, they can get off with a less harsh punishment/ get away with greater mistakes than a long term rebel player, and rebels generally seem to get harsher punishment than those in factions who have given a similar amount to the server in terms of activity, rp, and livelihood(the difference being that the faction person obviously has a couple more ts tags)

We'd received some feedback from the community regarding this and are looking into it. It is worth noting however that we receive notably less complaints about groups of players when they are in factions than we do when they are rebels, this is likely due to the fact the most vocal complainers are the Police and Poseidon, with Police probably edging as the leader in that category. Factions tend to be more closely knit and unlikely to pass information to the staff team (even those in senior faction positions) about rulebreaks inside the faction. The other side of this is that long term faction players (see Police/Poseidon/NHS leadership) on the whole have less bans/warnings than their rebel counterparts probably for the aforementioned reasons.

On 22/08/2019 at 13:37, Ant Arni said:

It should totally matter about intentions, and some admins will allow you to get away with things that others wouldn't

For example let's say your car flips over and you use a car to ram it back onto it's wheels some staff will be ok with it understanding why you did it however some would urge to ban you for VDM. Or you might be stuck inside a rock so you get restrained to drag you out of the rock, it depends on which staff member see's it on whether or not it's considered exploiting and worthy of a punishment.

I think it shouldn't matter if you're new or not, it should just matter about intention and whether or not it's actually ruining someone's experience.

There is a lot to be said for intent, and of course intent should obviously be taken into account, but in equal measure awareness of what is going on around you matters a lot too, for example I saw several longstanding players, continuously ramming into a flipped car that had rolled into a drainage channel, yes they were trying to upend the car, however they were doing in in the middle of a packed Kavala, just off Kavala bridge, with players watching their attempt. The players watching then go on thinking ramming cars is acceptable, they get pulled aside for VDM, Them: "But we saw ... do it" Me: "Ughhh....." 

With regards to the second situation, send an admin request first, then you have the benefit of logging the fact your stuck before committing to any action. Also there's the added bonus that an admin might just fix you themselves without you having to take any risk.

On 22/08/2019 at 15:19, Simen said:

This, precisely this.

I cant say I always follow the rules, but I never do anything that would give me the upper hand. Anything I'd do would be harmless and usually gives people a laugh.

If the rule break is harmless and the intention is to solve a problem or create a fun scenario, then a ban should be the last thing that pops up in the admins head when (s)he spectates it.

Simen, aren't you proof that what Ant says already happens?

On 22/08/2019 at 19:04, YoCo said:

I think a lot of what the issues stem from is the inconsistency, what one admin will ban for, another might not.

i personally feel that a solution to this would for admins to stop doing ‘on the spot bans’ apart from the obvious mass rdm’ers and dupers. 

But if people are involved in a situation, and everyone is enjoying themselves, and individuals aren’t abusing the server for personal gain then I don’t see the need for a person to be banned. I believe in the phrase ‘no harm no foul’. All admins record, so instead of the impromptu bans perhaps admins could submit reports themselves if they feel a rule has been broken. Might seem a bit of a lengthy, but not nearly as lengthy as the process of getting unbanned (believe me, I’ve been there). At least this would give people the opportunity to defend their actions and then reasonable action to be taken.

Let’s take for example a recent report in which the accused used a derogatory term, the reporter was asked if he felt upset by the term, he said no. And as such the reported wasn’t banned. However if an admin spectating this in game had heard it, I could most certainly say he would have been banned.

Tl:dr- too much inconsistency with impromptu bans. Get staff to submit reports to be reviewed so that there is sufficient consensus of a rulebreak with a victim.

(obviously I know this suggestion is very basic and doesn’t take into consideration the need to insta ban; racists, mass rdmers, dupers etc. But it’s something I believe would help keep the server from banning long term members)

remember. It’s just a game. 

Say an admin using playstv catches 3 rulebreakers (if only) over a 4 hour restart they've then got to close their game, meaning can't be on for the beginning of the restart. Cut that 4 hour video down into the 3 clips, upload the clips, send the report. Reports don't get actioned for at least 24 hours, then an admin makes a decision based another admins decision? Turning a process that takes 5 minutes and making it longer, for the purposes of review? I take it you'll give these volunteers their time back in some other fashion because you've just doubled the amount of reports going in, as well as tripled the time it takes to issue a ban?

The thing you forget is that unban appeals are bottom of the pile of admin activity, if there are a dozen reports to be reviewed and actioned the unban appeals then take even longer to process. This does not make the waiting time any better, especially if the report outcome is the same as if I would have banned you 1 day previously, except the fact you've wasted a days worth of appeal time by having to reply to my report.

With regard to that particular report, if you slowed the video right down, you could hear he actually does say khaki. If the player ended up banned for that and in his appeal posted a video asking for you to slow it down and you'll hear the word khaki, he'd have been unbanned.

In short, admins will not be at anytime in the near or distant future be required to post a report, to waste their limited time, to deal with bans seen from admin cam.
 

On 23/08/2019 at 00:45, WhoisDan said:

Spot on. I've seen players banned for jokingly running their mates over in cars (where, I should add, it was quite clear that they are just fucking around and not actually VDMing). The context of the situation is crucial and the rules should always be flexible if there is no ill intent. For example if you watch Unlucky George's videos, particularly in the earlier ones you'll notice him breaking all sorts of rules, but he was always excused by the admins because it was all in the name of fun. The same treatment that was always applied to him should be applied to everyone else.

I also agree with this, which is why I always thought the staff team was better when it was smaller and tighter-knit. There was less coverage admittedly and there was still some inconsistency, but far less than there has been in the past year or two since everybody and their nan was recruited into staff. Back in the days when it was split into game admins, admins and management, there were never more than 12 or so people that were part of staff (including management) and it was so much easier to communicate and get a general consus from each other when discussing bans. While I do see benefits of having a larger team, it makes it harder to communicate and manage, thus causing consistency problems.

The mindset of the staff team has moved on, things that you would have been able to do before have been properly nailed down, what I witnessed in late 2015 when it wasn't even that bad by comparison to what I heard from the times before I started, would lead to removal from the team and bans now.

As a former staff member you should be more than aware the benefit of hindsight and extra information, there's often more to a situation than it appears from the outside, in the past as it turned out you should have been banning people for running over their mates... they were exploiting the fact it healed you to 100% They had codewords for it, so it couldn't be caught in reports. Though I agree with the point of a more consistent opinion, but with a team triple the size that was going to be an inevitability, but one we constantly try to mitigate.

As for UnluckyGeorge he falls into the same category as LIRIK and EvalBetty for more recent examples, they all got excused for rulebreaks because they brought traction to the server, and the tradeoff of new players, entertainment value and memes (Ram Ranch) made it worth it. That's not to say we ignore streamers ChloeLock was pulled aside and kicked off to read the rules for breaking NLR. 

13 hours ago, Hapi said:

I would say 1 fuck up every month is a good record, when you take the play time, in the heat of the moment you will fuck up somehow.

That record would be the highest by far, for any player, pretty much ever. If you are managing to break the rules once a month, despite being caught and warned by the staff team you more than deserve a ban, if you maintained that record after being unbanned a permanent ban should be issued.

  • Like 9
  • Love 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
YoCo
1 hour ago, Aiden said:

 

Say an admin using playstv catches 3 rulebreakers (if only) over a 4 hour restart they've then got to close their game, meaning can't be on for the beginning of the restart. Cut that 4 hour video down into the 3 clips, upload the clips, send the report. Reports don't get actioned for at least 24 hours, then an admin makes a decision based another admins decision? Turning a process that takes 5 minutes and making it longer, for the purposes of review? I take it you'll give these volunteers their time back in some other fashion because you've just doubled the amount of reports going in, as well as tripled the time it takes to issue a ban?

The thing you forget is that unban appeals are bottom of the pile of admin activity, if there are a dozen reports to be reviewed and actioned the unban appeals then take even longer to process. This does not make the waiting time any better, especially if the report outcome is the same as if I would have banned you 1 day previously, except the fact you've wasted a days worth of appeal time by having to reply to my report.



 

well a process that takes 5 minutes, turning it into one that takes 20 mins (to upload footage and report) is far better than a person being banned for something they wouldnt neccessarily be banned on report for. and having to write out an unban and then wait a week or more to be unbanned.

 

as for the doubled the amount of reports and tripled the amount of times. My suggestion would also very considerably remove the amount of inconsistency within the staff team when it comes for bans, And i think that is a significantly better option.

you say that staff team spend their own times, but so does every member of the community, just by playing the game they contribute to the server. 

And I dont forget that they are bottom of the pile of admin activity, its precisely the reason for my suggestion. Admins can be rather over zealous with their in game impromptu bans, but yet it takes a long time to get unbanned. 

But anyways, i appreciate your response. And understand their is no view to change this in the future. 

  • Feelsbadman 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rice Krispy
1 hour ago, Aiden said:

The thing you forget is that unban appeals are bottom of the pile of admin activity,

Considering this and also the big dip the server has taken in activity, how would the staff team feel about now bringing in timed bans (1day/3day etc) instead of permanent bans for small rulebreaks. I feel it’s a shame for the community when an active member can’t play for 2-3 weeks due to the fact they did something stupid when having a laugh with mates or something similar. This would also cut down the workload staff have to do while also punishing the player if their actions were bad enough to warrant a ban. What your thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jason Detiri

May as well throw a little something into this while I'm viewing it, I ain't gonna quote all the things that have been said nor am I going to write a two thousand word essay on how the ban system won't change! 

The facts are that the rules are in place for a reason, they are to keep the server in line and to ensure everyone is playing safe and enjoying themselves at the same time. You mess up, you get banned! Write an appeal, don't be sarky about the fact you got banned as it's just a cry for attention. Honesty works, don't try to come up with a lie as to why you were banned as it won't work and I've watched it fail countless times on ban appeals..

Now moving on!

Yes, being banned for vaulting over a gate may seem like a shitty reason to get banned (Read from recent ban appeal.)  but who's to say you're not gonna use that to an advantage at a later date? Or a hobo sees it and thinks that's how the server works? Vaulting over walls, gates and etc to gain an advantage.

Regarding the points and "One fuck up a month" thing. I've played on servers where they have point systems and the odd "Meh I didn't see it so no repercussions." And that just -in my opinion- ruins Arma Roleplay servers completely as nobody cared if they got points as it only resulted in a ban if you got so many. The system we have works, why change it? You write up an appeal to show you're genuinely interested in the server, If you fucked up enough to get a perm ban without appeal you've obviously shown you're not worth keeping on the server.

Probably makes fuck all sense but yeah. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
WhoisDan
3 hours ago, Aiden said:

As a former staff member you should be more than aware the benefit of hindsight and extra information, there's often more to a situation than it appears from the outside, in the past as it turned out you should have been banning people for running over their mates... they were exploiting the fact it healed you to 100% They had codewords for it, so it couldn't be caught in reports. Though I agree with the point of a more consistent opinion, but with a team triple the size that was going to be an inevitability, but one we constantly try to mitigate.

I'm not talking about people using the health exploit. A perfect example I've seen is when a bunch of guys were having a competition of how far they can make their friend fly by ramming them with a car. It was all consentual, everyone was having fun, no one was getting hurt and nothing was being exploited, and all of the drivers in that competition were banned for VDM. Situations such as that- where nobody's getting hurt, it's not being used for anyone's advantage, it all just a bit of fun- there is no reason at all to ban in my view.

3 hours ago, Aiden said:

As for UnluckyGeorge he falls into the same category as LIRIK and EvalBetty for more recent examples, they all got excused for rulebreaks because they brought traction to the server, and the tradeoff of new players, entertainment value and memes (Ram Ranch) made it worth it. That's not to say we ignore streamers ChloeLock was pulled aside and kicked off to read the rules for breaking NLR. 

That's a poor reason to let people off. Don't get me wrong, George is my mate and I've always agreed that he should be able to bend the rules since he's not using it to his own advantage, but to give exceptions only to streamers and Youtubers for bringing more players is basically making it a popularity contest. Only the most popular kids in the playground get to bend the school rules- how is that fair? And how is it fair to then ban new players who have seen what those streamers have been doing, assumed it's OK to do those things, only to then find themselves banned because they're not one of the blessed few who have enough viewers on Twitch to get a pass on the rules?

2 hours ago, Rice Krispy said:

Considering this and also the big dip the server has taken in activity, how would the staff team feel about now bringing in timed bans (1day/3day etc) instead of permanent bans for small rulebreaks. I feel it’s a shame for the community when an active member can’t play for 2-3 weeks due to the fact they did something stupid when having a laugh with mates or something similar. This would also cut down the workload staff have to do while also punishing the player if their actions were bad enough to warrant a ban. What your thoughts?

As much as I do get why people question why we only have perma bans here, it's really the only type of ban that works. By making bans permenant unless appealed, they are forced to at the very least come to the forums to get unbanned, where they will find out what they did wrong so they can avoid doing it again. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Entropy
Posted (edited)

I'm a living example that honesty in permanent unbans can go far, and that the admins can be very lenient and accepting in giving long-term players chances. I've got some heavy bans on my record but i was still allowed to come back and play - something i never actually thought would happen.

Only thing i agree with here is the In-game banning of players doing very minor rule breaks - sometimes unintentional or for the fun of the game, like Dan said - and then having to wait 1 - 2 weeks to be unbanned.

I feel like posts like this wouldn't appear often on the forum if this wasn't a recurrence. I don't believe anyone has a problem with permanently banning those on the spot mass breaking rules, exploiting etc. However, banning on the spot long-term players for minor things and then ( since ban appeals are bottom priority ) making them sit out the server for 2 weeks is quite harmful to the playerbases mindset. Which is most likely why we see these posts occur over, and over.

Edited by Entropy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×