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Ban System Reverted Back (GTA ONLY)

Teddy Winkle

Banned
Location
Altis
Hi I'm Teddy Wrinkle,

My Brief Summary is go back to the old school RPUK Ban System i.e. you get banned you appeal. I believe the Fair Ban system was brought in to protect the smaller player base of Arma and agree it should remain in place for that server. However GTA regularly has queues of people waiting for hours to join so why should good RPers be stuck behind rule breakers who 24hrs ago just RDM'd a load of people. I believe this will have a positive impact and up the quality of the server by removing trolls and poor RPers without whitelisting.

In short, have a look through some of the videos past and present in the report a player section for GTA RDM etc and think, would I want to be stuck behind this person in the queue. 

Obviously not all rule breaks will be a perm ban, will follow similar lines as the previous system, and grey area one maybe a 24 hr ban could be used.

(Edited) OR as Simon suggests below, the lengh of time is altered to become more of a deterrent, 24hrs isnt enough.

Welcome your thoughts,

Teddy Wrinkle, that's me.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think the fair ban system should still apply to FiveM, however just for longer periods of time.

- First Ban is a week

- Second Ban is 2 weeks

- Third Ban is a month 

I think this would make people be more careful of the rules, and then also show new players that the server upholds the rules seriously

 
Hi Simon, 

Maybe it is just a length of time review but something has to change, adding to the fact that its a lot harder to report someone on GTA a 24 hr ban is no deterrent at all.   

 
Id say a better way to deal with this is a super low key "Quiz" on first join. So when a new player joins the server they must answer 3-5 questions which are answers are  rule numbers.
Feks: "What rule number is the RDMing Rule?" Correct answer would be  G.1.1 Success and you get to create your character, if you fail you can retry the quiz 3 times with different questions. This way, trolls cba. New players get the same chance to get started. Staff knows people must to some degrees have read the rules. 
 

 
Or even a soft whitelist? They need to join the discord and answer a few questions to a bot to whitelist them? 

 
Do you really think you will be happy filling out an appeal for recklessly driving? Or just some accidental rulebreak? Majority of longterm players are likely to break a rule at some point simply due to the amount of time they play. You going to enjoy waiting 2 weeks for your appeal to be answered as well?

Then you’ve got to think about the absolutely ridiculous amount of unban appeals that will then have to be handled as well.

 
Being one of the people in the staff team that dealt with the «cleaning» up of old bans/notes to give people a new fair chance i can only say no. I do not want to go back to the old system. 
 

Myself and other members of staff went through thousands of bans 1 by 1 to see if these could a) come back and be decent members of the community or b)Remain banned as the bridges are burned.

We still apply warnings, warnings that leads to bans. And bans that leads to appeals. The staff team have become better at both spotting and dealing with rulebreakers and i think overtall the positives With the FBS is exactly this. 
The player is given a chance to listen and improve, But if the attitude stinks and continues on.. Your ticket to this fantastic place gets taken.

By all means things can improve as the loopholes and other things get ironed out as we go along. We are in a great place With FiveM and ArmA and we are doing what we can to support and deal With things to better everyones experience.

so tldr, i do not think that is the right way to go. Constant rulebreaks will Get dealt With and one can only have so many chances. 
 

just my 2 cents

 
Id say a better way to deal with this is a super low key "Quiz" on first join. So when a new player joins the server they must answer 3-5 questions which are answers are  rule numbers.
Feks: "What rule number is the RDMing Rule?" Correct answer would be  G.1.1 Success and you get to create your character, if you fail you can retry the quiz 3 times with different questions. This way, trolls cba. New players get the same chance to get started. Staff knows people must to some degrees have read the rules. 
 
Ive seen this on a server before and it wasn't really great...as they could just go look at the website and skim over the rules.

 
There are no easy answers nor quick-fixes for this sort of problem - just hard slog and inconvenience all round because some people are idiots and don't read rules or behave themselves. Some don't even care.

We're continuously monitoring the quality of RP and attempting where possible to educate first, ban later. It is not an exact science, and it requires a great deal of staff time and commitment, all of which is voluntarily given, and unpaid - so there are limits to what we can reasonably expect staff to do.

We're aware that the queue is a bone of contention for some people, and there are as many different 'solutions' proposed by people as there are stars in the universe. Opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one (and yes, even a stoma counts).

We are considering our options on a daily basis, while balancing that against developer time - again, devs are fully committed, many of them working ridiculous hours day in day out to get things fixed and develop new things, all without any form of pay, and often in the face of some really toxic criticism by people who seem to think they are owed instant solutions, or red-carpet access to stuff that they then proceed to abuse or break. Not pointing any fingers at anyone on this thread, but it does mean that the devs sometimes have to just hunker down and 'get on with the problems they can solve', rather than holding endless 'focus-groups' to debate about the finer points of what certain players may think is "the only way, and it's only a couple of lines of code, surely?"

In short, we fight the fires we can fight, in the order we can fight them, according to our time, mindset, fatigue, and our copious internal discussions about priority and impact of any change. We don't always get it right - and we almost certainly will not get it 100% right for you, right now, today, pronto... but we do hear the most important concerns and they bubble up to a point where they become more pressing, have merit, and are worthy of being dealt with in turn.

In terms of the ban system, it will not be changing greatly - fair bans do seem to work better than the old 'everything must go to appeal' system, and it reduces the amount of staff time wasted on forum-writing (which some folks do not find as easy as me), and enables some idiots to be converted much more quickly with a friendly word in an ear, or a moment or two of in-game pointers or out-of-game chat, rather than a lofty appeal in public that takes a lot longer, and requires a lot more 'overwatch'.

I am looking at a number of solutions that might reward 'quality' roleplayers with a boost through the queue, but this is not a simple thing to set in motion, and will require a lot of support from staff and others in order to nominate who might be worthy, and who isn't. In time, we may see a system whereby some routinely great players are red-carpeted through the queue, while others who are borderline trolls find themselves waiting in line a lot longer for their chance to prove they are not a total dipshit after all. But as with all things, there will doubtless be much REEEEing and whining by those who have not been lucky enough to get a 'ticket to the party', and who are not fully aware that it's because they're basically not worthy. Those will be some tough conversations, I expect - and this is why the judgement of such things, and the handling of the disputes that will doubtless arise, need careful planning first, before any kind of implementation.

And of course, if it does not meet with approval from the rest of our staff, dev and management teams, or we cannot find people we are 100% agreed on as being 'judgers of quality roleplay', even within our own teams, then this may never happen at all. We shall see.

For now, just deal with it by reporting all instances of shit roleplay (and I mean **really** shit roleplay, not just someone who 'beat you' in an encounter or you don't like - I mean someone who is breaking actual rules). Use the Report-a-Player system on the Forum. Upload video evidence. Use the ID-reveal tool in-game to enable staff to later correlate videos of bad behaviour with a specific timed-session and session-ID, and nail the buggers properly - even if only for that 'first Fair Ban and Chat', or whatever. We will only combat bad players by working together and supporting the staff. Staff are not omniscient, and cannot see everything, every time, 24/7 - they can only react to what they have been informed of, and are able to respond to (at the time, or later in a report), or the things that happen to go off in front of them when they are trying to cover several hundred square miles of territory in which some people are being numpties.

We will continue to gradually increase the expectation upon players to 'give good RP', or they will slowly find themselves shut out - whether by queue access, or a straight ban. But it starts with us - the players - taking an active role, but a quiet one - no threats in-game to upload bodycam, no pretending to be staff yourself, just record what you see, and upload it if bad and needing attention, with as much detail as possible as to ID, and time, and the staff will do the rest as soon as they can get to it.

Then, in time, our queue will be chock full of brilliant RPers, all complaining that they still can't get on... but at least this particular gripe will be behind us.

 
There are no easy answers nor quick-fixes for this sort of problem - just hard slog and inconvenience all round because some people are idiots and don't read rules or behave themselves. Some don't even care.

We're continuously monitoring the quality of RP and attempting where possible to educate first, ban later. It is not an exact science, and it requires a great deal of staff time and commitment, all of which is voluntarily given, and unpaid - so there are limits to what we can reasonably expect staff to do.

We're aware that the queue is a bone of contention for some people, and there are as many different 'solutions' proposed by people as there are stars in the universe. Opinions are like arseholes... everybody has one (and yes, even a stoma counts).

We are considering our options on a daily basis, while balancing that against developer time - again, devs are fully committed, many of them working ridiculous hours day in day out to get things fixed and develop new things, all without any form of pay, and often in the face of some really toxic criticism by people who seem to think they are owed instant solutions, or red-carpet access to stuff that they then proceed to abuse or break. Not pointing any fingers at anyone on this thread, but it does mean that the devs sometimes have to just hunker down and 'get on with the problems they can solve', rather than holding endless 'focus-groups' to debate about the finer points of what certain players may think is "the only way, and it's only a couple of lines of code, surely?"

In short, we fight the fires we can fight, in the order we can fight them, according to our time, mindset, fatigue, and our copious internal discussions about priority and impact of any change. We don't always get it right - and we almost certainly will not get it 100% right for you, right now, today, pronto... but we do hear the most important concerns and they bubble up to a point where they become more pressing, have merit, and are worthy of being dealt with in turn.

In terms of the ban system, it will not be changing greatly - fair bans do seem to work better than the old 'everything must go to appeal' system, and it reduces the amount of staff time wasted on forum-writing (which some folks do not find as easy as me), and enables some idiots to be converted much more quickly with a friendly word in an ear, or a moment or two of in-game pointers or out-of-game chat, rather than a lofty appeal in public that takes a lot longer, and requires a lot more 'overwatch'.

I am looking at a number of solutions that might reward 'quality' roleplayers with a boost through the queue, but this is not a simple thing to set in motion, and will require a lot of support from staff and others in order to nominate who might be worthy, and who isn't. In time, we may see a system whereby some routinely great players are red-carpeted through the queue, while others who are borderline trolls find themselves waiting in line a lot longer for their chance to prove they are not a total dipshit after all. But as with all things, there will doubtless be much REEEEing and whining by those who have not been lucky enough to get a 'ticket to the party', and who are not fully aware that it's because they're basically not worthy. Those will be some tough conversations, I expect - and this is why the judgement of such things, and the handling of the disputes that will doubtless arise, need careful planning first, before any kind of implementation.

And of course, if it does not meet with approval from the rest of our staff, dev and management teams, or we cannot find people we are 100% agreed on as being 'judgers of quality roleplay', even within our own teams, then this may never happen at all. We shall see.

For now, just deal with it by reporting all instances of shit roleplay (and I mean **really** shit roleplay, not just someone who 'beat you' in an encounter or you don't like - I mean someone who is breaking actual rules). Use the Report-a-Player system on the Forum. Upload video evidence. Use the ID-reveal tool in-game to enable staff to later correlate videos of bad behaviour with a specific timed-session and session-ID, and nail the buggers properly - even if only for that 'first Fair Ban and Chat', or whatever. We will only combat bad players by working together and supporting the staff. Staff are not omniscient, and cannot see everything, every time, 24/7 - they can only react to what they have been informed of, and are able to respond to (at the time, or later in a report), or the things that happen to go off in front of them when they are trying to cover several hundred square miles of territory in which some people are being numpties.

We will continue to gradually increase the expectation upon players to 'give good RP', or they will slowly find themselves shut out - whether by queue access, or a straight ban. But it starts with us - the players - taking an active role, but a quiet one - no threats in-game to upload bodycam, no pretending to be staff yourself, just record what you see, and upload it if bad and needing attention, with as much detail as possible as to ID, and time, and the staff will do the rest as soon as they can get to it.

Then, in time, our queue will be chock full of brilliant RPers, all complaining that they still can't get on... but at least this particular gripe will be behind us.
I really like this explanation, However my idea/opinions would be more in favor for the "Notes" written on people, for example, lets take a common Rp'er who is well known not to break rules, doesnt troll, and is enjoyable. Lets name him Bob. If Bob one day broke a rule without malicious intent, he didn't know that he broke it, didn't gain a massive advantage, and or just admits to it and understood what he did wrong, I believe that experienced players 2+ months, should be given a chance to explain why for what they did. (Not talking about reports but maybe a admin camming and catching him in the act) Giving him a chance to come on teamspeak and explain so staff better understand what/why he did what he did. Now under the Fair Ban system, if he has a very clean record, handing out a ban IMO is a bit harsh, yes he broke a rule, but a formal warning from staff to him, who isn't here to troll, but here to RP, would be enough IMHO. But if what he did was malicious, did it on purpose knowing he would gain a advantage, or just trolled. He should get banned 

Now onto a inexperienced player, lets call him Jack. If Jack has a few notes regarding him causing problems, being quite mouthy etc.. If he breaks a rule, he should fall under FBS and get a 24 Hour ban, but before that, if he wants to, explain why what he did, was wrong or what he thinks in his perspective. But if hes just trolling, or causing issues that are seriously destroying RP, skip the 24H, 48H bans and move him straight to the 1 week. 

I like how it works, however some players who are very clean sometimes get a ban and I find that a bit too harsh if they are not trouble makers, unlike on arma, you can't really comp unless a Dev gives the item to the person. So if someone genuinely understood what they did wrong and offers a comp, he should pay for how much the gun is worth from the devs themselves, whilst the devs pulling money out of the guys account. Now onto the fact if they cant pay? Well then its a ban, with the reporter having to request a comp request. This is all for FiveM btw. 

I believe maybe another poll should be put out there, with the intentions to see, what does the community think currently of the system. A) Keep current System B) Keep current system but make minor changes C) Change the system D) Revert back to old system

 
Is it possible from at least non-staff perspective to say with good confidence the people being banned are actually coming back and causing the same issues that it's actually a problem in itself? Most trolls people won't care if you insta-ban everyone 

There are more people on the server joining for the first time, be it with some who have good intentions and some with bad intentions. Unfortunately no system, without changing the way people join the server (that is ideas like interrupting the join process with a question set, or similar), is going to prevent what sometimes happens. I expect any competently minded adult to look at a quiz and copy the rule from the rules page .

People will always come here to troll and as some are banned, more will join - like filling a bath with the plug taken out. There's not a lot we can do about it without a system that scrutinizes players who are new - but then that deters people joining and is resource intensive.

 
I really like this explanation, However my idea/opinions would be more in favor for the "Notes" written on people, for example, lets take a common Rp'er who is well known not to break rules, doesnt troll, and is enjoyable. Lets name him Bob. If Bob one day broke a rule without malicious intent, he didn't know that he broke it, didn't gain a massive advantage, and or just admits to it and understood what he did wrong, I believe that experienced players 2+ months, should be given a chance to explain why for what they did. (Not talking about reports but maybe a admin camming and catching him in the act) Giving him a chance to come on teamspeak and explain so staff better understand what/why he did what he did. Now under the Fair Ban system, if he has a very clean record, handing out a ban IMO is a bit harsh, yes he broke a rule, but a formal warning from staff to him, who isn't here to troll, but here to RP, would be enough IMHO. But if what he did was malicious, did it on purpose knowing he would gain a advantage, or just trolled. He should get banned 
The vast majority of the time, this is actually how it goes, at staff member discretion, for everyone. 

 
The vast majority of the time, this is actually how it goes, at staff member discretion, for everyone. 
Ah apologies then, I am unsure on how things are run correctly, thanks for correcting me 😄 

 
This was brought up in todays Rules meeting and this is a change that we will not do.

TinyBigJacko's reply is really good as to why,
Thank you for taking your time to suggest this.

 
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