Police Restrictions re-vote

[Joe Malley]

This is reasonable...

Accept it is complicated, sometimes a simple solution is best just go with:

Anyone below bronze command AND not in a primary unit can play rebel whenever:

Anyone above bronze command or in primary unit can only play at off peak hours e.g 12pm-12am

Anyone silver command or in more than 1 unit cannot play rebel

Police command are being over dramatic about the effect allowing people to play rebel will have, it isn't going to kill the faction. Poseidon have a similar implementation to what I stated above and you still see early morning patrols, you still see the slot limit being full at peak times, it didn't kill Poseidon and it wont kill police.

The current implementation was not what was voted for 2 months ago, and the current implementation seems like police command got together and made being a special constable as unattractive as possible so that they can say that they technically followed the vote while at the same time not much changes. 

 

[Tadworth]

Accept it is complicated, sometimes a simple solution is best just go with:

Anyone below bronze command AND not in a primary unit can play rebel whenever:

Anyone above bronze command or in primary unit can only play at off peak hours e.g 12pm-12am

Anyone silver command or in more than 1 unit cannot play rebel

Police command are being over dramatic about the effect allowing people to play rebel will have, it isn't going to kill the faction. Poseidon have a similar implementation to what I stated above and you still see early morning patrols, you still see the slot limit being full at peak times, it didn't kill Poseidon and it wont kill police.

The current implementation was not what was voted for 2 months ago, and the current implementation seems like police command got together and made being a special constable as unattractive as possible so that they can say that they technically followed the vote while at the same time not much changes. 

I'm not going to get into an extended discussion regarding this, as Management and Gold Command have come to this agreement based on a multitude of factors. I will however respond to your suggestions and discuss your opinions regarding how the decision was made on our behalf.

---- Your proposal

The solution you have proposed is already much more complicated already than the current system, stating it is "a simple solution" is simply wrong, as shown below:

The current requirements:

To play Rebel in the Police you must be an SC

Your, new "simple" requirements:

Dependent on whether you meet the defined set of specifications below or not, depends on whether or not you can play as a rebel in the Police.

• Anyone below bronze command AND not in a primary unit can play rebel whenever:
  
• Anyone above bronze command or in primary unit can only play at off peak hours e.g 12pm-12am
  
• Anyone silver command or in more than 1 unit cannot play rebel
  

Q: How would we track who is playing rebel at what times, would we be able to do this out of RP? Or must we still catch corrupt cops outside of these defined times in a degree of RP?
Q: What happens when somebody gets promoted? Do we ask them before they get promoted past INS if they want to stop playing rebel to become and INS? Or do we just promote them and they just lose that right due to somebody elses decision?
Q: If the above is true, and we ask people if they want to be promoted to INS, how do you manage the vast number of players who will simply be stuck at the rank of SGT holding up slots in constabularies?

---- Gold Command being dramatic

We're not being over dramatic about anything. We're simply in a unique position. We work alongside management to see almost all the factors affected by these changes, and therefore are able to make balanced decisions based on these factors. One of the factors we considered when introducing the SC rank, was exactly this situation. I predicted along with other members of Police Command exactly who would, and wouldn't take advantage of the new position when it was introduced, we were pretty much bang on with our predictions.

Although you may think we just bang our heads together once in a blue moon and something we want you all to hate comes out of the other end, that's not true. Collectively we've got upwards of 20 years experience in the Police on RPUK, so we're well versed in our own areas respectively, and trying to make the right decisions for both the server and the Police.

Poseidon are on the same side of the law as the gangs, therefore it's not at all comparable to the police, if you learn something as a cop it's very easily used against cops when you're playing rebel, or even against other gangs, thus affecting the balance of the server completely.

it didn't kill Poseidon and it wont kill police.

I'm quite confident in saying the current system, now tested for a month, is not and will not kill our faction, therefore based on your above statement, our current policy is on an equal level

---- Suggestion != Outcome?

In terms of the final outcome, in relation to the initial suggestion, it was always understood, and pretty much expected to be common knowledge that compimisies would need to be made, to ensure balance remains for everyone on the server, rebels police poseidon etc alike. If you expected the outcome of the vote to simply be "everybody can play rebel" then - as I mentioned previously - you really have not considered all the options or factors involved in these changes at all.

 

[Joe Malley]

Q: How would we track who is playing rebel at what times, would we be able to do this out of RP? Or must we still catch corrupt cops outside of these defined times in a degree of RP?

How did you catch corrupt cops before the SC rank, and how are you going to catch corrupt cops that are not SC now? Because just apply that method.

Q: What happens when somebody gets promoted? Do we ask them before they get promoted past INS if they want to stop playing rebel to become and INS? Or do we just promote them and they just lose that right due to somebody elses decision?

Yes, that's exactly what Poseidon does

Q: If the above is true, and we ask people if they want to be promoted to INS, how do you manage the vast number of players who will simply be stuck at the rank of SGT holding up slots in constabularies?

1.) you are seriously over estimating how many players would rather get to play rebel all the time instead of taking a promotion

2.) if your seriously concerned about this then make replace below bronze command with below SGT

Poseidon are on the same side of the law as the gangs, therefore it's not at all comparable to the police, if you learn something as a cop it's very easily used against cops when you're playing rebel, or even against other gangs, thus affecting the balance of the server completely.

It's not all about winning, sometimes taking a loss is more beneficial for the overall quality of role play on the server, furthermore Poseidon are not on the same side as rebels, we often work against them and information gained by a Poseidon member could easily be used against Poseidon.

In terms of the final outcome, in relation to the initial suggestion, it was always understood, and pretty much expected to be common knowledge that compromises would need to be made

Yeah it was clear there would be compromises, but there wasn't a thread complaining about the compromises that Poseidon command implemented, because they were reasonable compromises that still fulfilled what was voted for.

Furthermore it was stated that when there implementations were created their would also be a community vote on if they were the kind of compromises people wanted, this hasn't happened either, they were just implemented. In my opinion this whole situation just reflects poorly on police command as a whole as you have failed to honour a vote in which the majority of the community voted to remove restrictions completely.

 

[Hammah]

For people claiming the form was only sent to people that would vote in favour for rebel that is completely incorrect. I understand the first 7 people on the "Form Responses" are obviously members of AR as we made the form and posted it into our teamspeak channel however, RuthlessInfo, Lionel Ryker, Tokjat, Corrie Healy, Hagrid, Jack Reacher, Roveris, TBigSoul, Simen, Slawek, Brandon, Mike Polo, Daniel Snow, Greenhalgh, James Travers, Snuffles, Henning, Mystix, Samantha, Ali Barber, John Kurz, Santo, Leon Kennedy, KeirT, Arbaaz, Andrew, Alfred, Ace J Hunter, Gzeeman, Sarge, Kieran, Nomad, Tommy J, Roo Hyuga, John Miller, Kseniya, Xeulifer, Smith, Hawkeye, Jack Reacher, 40 police officers who I personally would have been unaware of what their decisions would have been. The form was not sent to "specific" people, it was posted in police-members discord, it was sent to every officer online at the time, even the people in "police afk" and obviously as you know, we made the mistake of posting it on this post which resulted in some idiots trolling the form with silly names.

 

[Brandon Pigeon]

Im a Special and Im then a rebel on a monday night  

 

[John Yellow]

Q: What happens when somebody gets promoted? Do we ask them before they get promoted past INS if they want to stop playing rebel to become and INS? Or do we just promote them and they just lose that right due to somebody elses decision?

Gona just answere that one, do like the NHS do/did with MTO team in the past. have a section on the google sheet where it will say yes or no if the person wants to be promoted to a senior/administative rank Ig. when people get a promotion they can simply be asked if they still want to progress further. if yes, the sheet says yes. and command can promote. if it says no, then command knows not to promot said person

 

[Tokjat]

To me it looks simple as Butch has already said make it so that the police can play rebel outside peak hours like from 12am till 4 pm and if your an SC you can play rebel even whit in the peak hours

 

[Recon9]

Hello, Special Constable here.. with some concerns about how this data has been produced.

I think there are some faults with this "questionaire". Please correct me if i am wrong, but the intention behind the survey seems to be "Do the general majority of police want the ability to play rebel - aswell as police".
With this question in mind, i find it odd - how one of the main question are simply "would you like to play rebel? (yes/no)". People generaly tend to want a variance of activites in their day, and i dont find it surprising at all that people say yes. This would make this a "forced" yes - as the only ones that say no are the ones that strongly dislike playing rebel, this excludes the majority of everyone on the server.

A questionaire is just not a very good way to produce data on humans (With the exception of "thruths" like income, age, place of residence etc..). This information should be gathered in a qualitative way, like a short interview with 50 police (Number of interviewees at one rank being same percentage as the number of this ranked officers in the force - This way you also could get closer to a representative selection) 

Very True

 

[Tadworth]

Gona just answere that one, do like the NHS do/did with MTO team in the past. have a section on the google sheet where it will say yes or no if the person wants to be promoted to a senior/administative rank Ig. when people get a promotion they can simply be asked if they still want to progress further. if yes, the sheet says yes. and command can promote. if it says no, then command knows not to promot said person

You still havent resolved the issue of slots.

1.) you are seriously over estimating how many players would rather get to play rebel all the time instead of taking a promotion

No, I'm not, I'm considering that we might get lots of people stuck at one rank, considering the amount of people who want to play rebel now according to polls etc, I actually don't think I am overestimating this.

How did you catch corrupt cops before the SC rank, and how are you going to catch corrupt cops that are not SC now? Because just apply that method.

We apply that same method accross the board, my point being that if somebody is in a good RP situation as a rebel at 12pm, and wants to continue that after restart, this solution makes it impossible for this to occour.

It's not all about winning, sometimes taking a loss is more beneficial for the overall quality of role play on the server, furthermore Poseidon are not on the same side as rebels, we often work against them and information gained by a Poseidon member could easily be used against Poseidon.

Firstly, Poseidon are on the same side as the rebels from the police's perspective, it doesn't matter whether they work against eachother sometimes, they work against the police all the time. It's not all about winning, I agree with that 100%, hence why we're ensuring balance on the server is retained, and is not drastically affected by any changes.

Yeah it was clear there would be compromises, but there wasn't a thread complaining about the compromises that Poseidon command implemented, because they were reasonable compromises that still fulfilled what was voted for.

As I mentioned previously, the reasonability the comprimises made is dependent on many factors, most of all people's personal attraction to playing rebel, those who don't care will find this reasonble, those who don't mind about ranking up in the cops will find this reasonable, people such as yourself however who want a complete dualtiy of characters, where you can switch seemlessly between the two, evidently are not going to be please with this comprimise.

If we could please everyone and ensure that the server was still balanced all in one swoop, I'm sure ourselves (Police Command) and management, would do that; but in the current climate this is not possible.

Furthermore it was stated that when there implementations were created their would also be a community vote on if they were the kind of compromises people wanted, this hasn't happened either, they were just implemented. In my opinion this whole situation just reflects poorly on police command as a whole as you have failed to honour a vote in which the majority of the community voted to remove restrictions completely.

I mean, I wouldn't say it reflects poorly on us, we put days of time and effort into creating and ratifying the current system, whether you like it or not a lot of hard work went into this implimentation, from Management to Developers to Police Command. If anything, having a solution to this at all is excellent, you're now able to do something that I've not been able to in my 5 years in the cops, and which many others have never had the opportunity to do.

As so many people keep telling me, this is a game, Police Command are trying to make "the game" fun for everyone, we will never please everyone, but we have taken steps to try to impliment the vote as fully as possible, this does not reflect poorly on us.

From me: (Thanks to Police Command for putting all the hard work and effort in to get this system implimented)

 

[Lost_avenger]

i stated this when i filled the form but its not just about playing rebel for me with rebel being doing strictly rebel activities such as
raiding

mugging 

drugs
kidnap

for me its the fact that my civ life would be compleatly pointless can i run diamonds or metals no not really what idiot does runs unarmed and the compromise of you can carry .45 calibur smgs WITHOUT attatchments like scopes is not a great one either

infact i could be quoting as saying "id be better off arming myself with some ribon and gift wrapping my ass to the rebels"

i can understand why police might not want there members making things more strained for the police by adding fuel to the fire with there rebel activity but activley punishing people who just wanna do legal runs and rp by forcing them to do so unarmed is harsh

so at the MINIMUM punishments for illigal weapons to off duty police should be relaxed

but at the same time i to think that police should be able to go "full rebel"

white list factions are the life blood off the server 

with no police rebels have no advisary and theyll become bored as its too easy to get away with crimes
with no medics youd more often than not loose all your gear 
even poseidon have there role 

and the members who play those roles help stimulate the roleplay and put alot of work into there Whitelist factions ontop of this we are held to higher standards than the rest of the server 

to punish us by preventing us from enjoying the server like regular members get to is insane minimum hours is one thing but out and out bans on playing certain roles is just unfair

note: im currently in the nhs and i devote all my peak time (roughtly midday to -midnight to my whitelist faction) my evenings (midnight to 8am) are spent earning money i intend to split myself between medic and police during day and atm my only option is go SC so i can still hangout with my other medics doing cash runs in the evening

 

[DemonPuppy]

white list factions are the life blood off the server 

LMAO, lets see what happen when there are no rebels left on the island. If they are the life blood of the server, everything should be fine right?

On a real note, so whats the restriction? or compromise? (can't be asked to read through everything)

 

[Joe Malley]

We apply that same method accross the board, my point being that if somebody is in a good RP situation as a rebel at 12pm, and wants to continue that after restart, this solution makes it impossible for this to occour.

This is seriously an edge case, when was the last time you experienced something like this, I cant remember the last time I have had a situation where I wanted to continue.

Lets say you have a police officers that does not want to be an SC because they don't want to lose all the work they have put into the police, and they have a friend who is a rebel or a Poseidon member, and they want to play together even if it is just for an hour or so, well the only way this can occur is if the officer drops rank down to SC and gives up everything they have worked for.

No, I'm not, I'm considering that we might get lots of people stuck at one rank, considering the amount of people who want to play rebel now according to polls etc, I actually don't think I am overestimating this.

Ok well if you have people who are filling up a limited slot rank that are playing a considerable amount more rebel than cops then move them down a rank, or adjust adjust the system so that its below SGT get to play rebel instead.

Firstly, Poseidon are on the same side as the rebels from the police's perspective, it doesn't matter whether they work against eachother sometimes, they work against the police all the time. It's not all about winning, I agree with that 100%, hence why we're ensuring balance on the server is retained, and is not drastically affected by any changes.

 

Im not sure what the police's perspective has to do with Poseidon fighting rebels sometimes, but keep in mind you have people in the police because they want to play police, allowing your officers to play as a rebel during off peak hours isn't suddenly going to tip the balance of the server, it wont all of a sudden make police the underdog in some situations, at most all that will happen is sometimes you may face an extra rebel or 2 in a fight, and considering the current rebel vs police ratios where you often see rebels outnumbered 2:1 in big fights, this wouldn't be a bad thing

As so many people keep telling me, this is a game, Police Command are trying to make "the game" fun for everyone, we will never please everyone, but we have taken steps to try to impliment the vote as fully as possible, this does not reflect poorly on us.

Exactly this is a game, you need to relax and let people play how they want.

You haven't tried to implement the vote fully because the vote said to remove restrictions completely and instead you have implemented a very over complicated system that will punishes members of your faction if they want to play rebel as they have to give up everything they have worked for in the police.

There was also supposed to be a vote where the compromises would be voted for against no restrictions at all, but instead you have just implemented them.

 

[Lost_avenger]

LMAO, lets see what happen when there are no rebels left on the island. If they are the life blood of the server, everything should be fine right?

On a real note, so whats the restriction? or compromise? (can't be asked to read through everything)

police cannot play as rebel apart from when they are issued a 1 week rebel holiday every few weeks 

as civs they cannot have any weapon above a verrmin or sting and NO optics they can still be arrested and have that confiscated but unlike other weapons they wont get in trouble with there command for it 

the cmpromise was throwing away your police carrear and rank and essentially going straight back down to SC rank 


also if all rebels left police could just rp with the poseidon guys  

 

[ReiSSs]

 
This is seriously an edge case, when was the last time you experienced something like this, I cant remember the last time I have had a situation where I wanted to continue.

Lets say you have a police officers that does not want to be an SC because they don't want to lose all the work they have put into the police, and they have a friend who is a rebel or a Poseidon member, and they want to play together even if it is just for an hour or so, well the only way this can occur is if the officer drops rank down to SC and gives up everything they have worked for.

 
Ok well if you have people who are filling up a limited slot rank that are playing a considerable amount more rebel than cops then move them down a rank, or adjust adjust the system so that its below SGT get to play rebel instead.

 
Im not sure what the police's perspective has to do with Poseidon fighting rebels sometimes, but keep in mind you have people in the police because they want to play police, allowing your officers to play as a rebel during off peak hours isn't suddenly going to tip the balance of the server, it wont all of a sudden make police the underdog in some situations, at most all that will happen is sometimes you may face an extra rebel or 2 in a fight, and considering the current rebel vs police ratios where you often see rebels outnumbered 2:1 in big fights, this wouldn't be a bad thing

Exactly this is a game, you need to relax and let people play how they want.

You haven't tried to implement the vote fully because the vote said to remove restrictions completely and instead you have implemented a very over complicated system that will punishes members of your faction if they want to play rebel as they have to give up everything they have worked for in the police.

There was also supposed to be a vote where the compromises would be voted for against no restrictions at all, but instead you have just implemented them.

To be honest Malley, I personally couldn't give a fuck about my rank if i could play rebel WITHOUT having to leave AR. If I could drop to SC and stay in AR I and a lot of others would be fine with this change.