Police Value of Life

[Dan Black]

This will be a suggestion that a lot of people will frown upon as well as agree with, but it is something that could potentially add a lot better RP in regards to "cop & crim" scenarios. 

From my perspective, as a gang member, there is a lot to loose when going to war with another gang, a robbery, a hostage situation, a prison break or assisting other gangs with anything that could lead to an arrest. The risk factor will always be there. Weapons are not cheap and every time you loose one, it is a lot of time spent to regain that. This does push gangs toward fighting their way out of a situation, because that is the only way out. Police have zero tolerance and want to get everyone apprehended, no matter the cost. That is just the problem. There is no cost to the individuals from the PD. This does take away from RP situations. 

I would like to mention 2 examples as to having people understand my perspective. 

We recently had a war not too long ago. We got pushed on our turf and fought back. I got into a fight with a guy that had a Uzi and I had a pistol. The situation ended in him putting me down and he won that 1vs1 situation, all the credit to him. Then 2 police officers come around the corner and just shoot him without saying a word to him. Firstly, he did not threaten them, he did not shoot at them, he had no beef with the police, it was gang related. Yes, some people would classify that as RDM, but the biggest issue is, that the police push into the middle of a gang fight and just start shooting at whoever they see. There are numerous situations similar to this and I can guarantee that I am not the only person, and we not the only gang that has experienced this. Police in real life would never just run into the middle of a gun fight. It is too unsafe, the situation firstly has to calm down before they can go in and investigate. Not run in guns blazing. If a gang wins a gunfight against another gang, they deserve the chance to get away, but that is not presented to them. This comes down to the police have nothing to loose. 

Secondly, something very recent. There was a hostage situation to which the police showed up to. Negotiations was underway and clearly ignored. More people got involved. The police then proceeded to push into the building, not valuing the life of the hostage or their own, because once again, nothing to loose. This escalated into a massive firefight, with every single cop dying. Where did anyone value their life there? But that is another topic altogether. 

The big problem with these scenarios is not that server rules are being broken through NVL, but the fact the the police have nothing to loose. They go in, die, respawn, get everything they lost back and jump back on duty. Their needs to be a risk factor involved for the police as well, something to loose. Gangs loose guns to the value of 100's of thousands. 

So this is my suggestion. If police member get shot and go down, or end up bleeding out. They need recovery time. They need to go off shift for the remainder of the time until server restart or at least a given period of time. This will create a risk factor for police as well, thinking twice before acting. This would mean the recent hostage situation they would have negotiated that the hostage is released and the gang member were allowed to go freely. Yes, there could have been a police chase initiated afterwards, but the situation was escalated immediately. What happened to that hostage? Is it not a success to have gotten the hostage out safely even if people got away? Was that no the whole mission? Or did everyone just go there with the intent to shoot? It is an RP server, not GTA online. 

This will greatly increase RP situations, because everyone would end up having something to loose. This is not so gangs can always win, this is purely for structure in police life also carrying value for themselves. 

 

[Joshua]

however from what I know/imagine the police budget is very very large meaning

It is not, trust me.

 

[Nikolai]

So this is my suggestion. If police member get shot and go down, or end up bleeding out. They need recovery time. They need to go off shift for the remainder of the time until server restart or at least a given period of time.

yea, no

the only thing that will end up happening is people purposely going around to shoot and kill police, meaning they can do whatever they want since no police is around
I like the idea of police perhaps should be punished in some way, but forcing them to not do the RP they came onto the server for is not the way no matter how you look at it

my POV not staff's and so on

 

[Ade]

I think this is a fantastic discussion first of all. Loving seeing all the arguments for and against. I see its really generated some discussion.

A slight spin on the idea of downtime if you will. Put the officer behind a desk. Not down or recovering or whatever. Get them doing admin. Paperwork. Do it in PD obviously so they are still there actively. It could be used in the same way as jail time for a crim. The officer is assigned to desk duty while he or she recovers and is not able to leave the pd but is fully capable of performing his or her role while inside of it. making coffee. cleaning tables. filing papers etc.

If for some unbeknown reason a whole wave of police officers gets taken out by some nefarious gang members or a tragic accident and, as rightly argued above, the crims have their wicked way with the server then one way to deal with that is as follows.

Have a percentage value defined for number of police on desk duty versus number of total police online. Set that value to a number where, if achieved, it will shortcut the "cooldown" for those on desk duty to return to active duty and get back out on the road policing us all and making us safe to pick our apples and drive our cabs

 

[CodyLtd]

I think this is a fantastic discussion first of all. Loving seeing all the arguments for and against. I see its really generated some discussion.

A slight spin on the idea of downtime if you will. Put the officer behind a desk. Not down or recovering or whatever. Get them doing admin. Paperwork. Do it in PD obviously so they are still there actively. It could be used in the same way as jail time for a crim. The officer is assigned to desk duty while he or she recovers and is not able to leave the pd but is fully capable of performing his or her role while inside of it. making coffee. cleaning tables. filing papers etc.

If for some unbeknown reason a whole wave of police officers gets taken out by some nefarious gang members or a tragic accident and, as rightly argued above, the crims have their wicked way with the server then one way to deal with that is as follows.

Have a percentage value defined for number of police on desk duty versus number of total police online. Set that value to a number where, if achieved, it will shortcut the "cooldown" for those on desk duty to return to active duty and get back out on the road policing us all and making us safe to pick our apples and drive our cabs

My man we do not have enough paperwork for that to be a good use of time, and adding more paperwork will literally just make less of us want to play. Yall are acting like we need to get punished if we lose, yet we get nothing if we win. Cops already get jack for doing their job, we get paid barely enough to afford the food and drink we need to survive, and we lose money from the police budget if we die. Crims lose more when they die yes, as they personally have to work to get that money back, but if the crims win they get a lot more than us, as they get whatever it is that they decided to do the crime for; such as our gear or the item they are robbing. And if you are doing crime with nothing to gain, thus countering my point, that is just bad business and its on your head if you lose it.

 

[Ade]

My man we do not have enough paperwork for that to be a good use of time, and adding more paperwork will literally just make less of us want to play. Yall are acting like we need to get punished if we lose, yet we get nothing if we win.

wasnt meaning literal paperwork, like turning a game in to a job. just a figure of speech in the idea that the police would potentially be tied up doing a desk job instead of being out actively policing. i hope that clarifies.

 

[Johnathon Reeds]

wasnt meaning literal paperwork, like turning a game in to a job. just a figure of speech in the idea that the police would potentially be tied up doing a desk job instead of being out actively policing. i hope that clarifies.

So what do you suggest we do? /e sitchair for the next hour?

 

[William Antrim]

The issue isn't the money that is lost on death. Its the time to replace said items. Police funds are generated through various means, none of which involve the officers grinding. The police have millions of pounds worth of items in evidence lockers that are waiting to be shipped off to be destroyed. 

The police budget is absolutely not in any danger of drying up. Yes people need to be careful with their items on all sides but they also need to be adults about the situation they're in. 

Criminals/civilians have to grind for a considerable amount of time to procure a lost item. This is the difference. The time, universal currency that it is, is at the crux of this argument. 

At least 90% of these gripes van be resolved by people just simply being mature and adult with one another and respecting each others rp. 

If that can't or won't happen then all the shit flinging in the world won't solve an issue like this. 

 

[Paru]

My two pence regarding this is actually the opposite, Gangs should fear Police presence and instead of walking around with an Uzi out, should probably consider running away instead of trying to push and fight, last night was yet another example of gangs not giving a shit about Police and taking them hostage in front of other officers Trojan officers at that, the meta at present is that gangs aren't scared of anyone especially Police and are openly willing to shoot their way out of a situation that they should realistically lose/surrender to, for example 4-8 Trojan officers around 4-5 gang members, that in addition to the fact that these gangs are now all grouping up together and actively involving themselves in their allied gangs situations (Ballas and Triads last night as an example, circumventing the gang caps once more), we do fear for our lives, but at the same time we have a duty of care for the public and when innocent members of the public are hit in crossfire (Which happens far to frequently, learn to aim! smh) then LSPS need to step in, it's a matter of saving life or limb when it comes to RP.

 

[Bmav]

we do fear for our lives, but at the same time we have a duty of care for the public and when innocent members of the public are hit in crossfire (Which happens far to frequently, learn to aim! smh) then LSPS need to step in, it's a matter of saving life or limb when it comes to RP.

You should defenitly try to get a hostage and negotiate with cops or do an hostage situation in general just to see how much "Care for the public" they have. I would say out of a total of like 5 hostage situation 4 of them are bullshit and cops just wanting to do something else so they just hurry it up because they CBA.

Not blaming cops in general its obvious that there is bad apples on both sides no denying that but the good apples on the gangs side end up losing more than the good apples on the cop side if they die or some bullshit happens.

My point is adding something for cops to be more engaged and actually be afraid of losing some stuff is not a bad idea to level the playing field a bit otherwise whats happening its probably gonna continue to happen because most people have had enough of losing stuff to the bad apples of the bunch and thats why they team up or end up helping each other sometimes.

 

[Haza]

My two pence regarding this is actually the opposite, Gangs should fear Police presence and instead of walking around with an Uzi out, should probably consider running away instead of trying to push and fight, last night was yet another example of gangs not giving a shit about Police and taking them hostage in front of other officers Trojan officers at that, the meta at present is that gangs aren't scared of anyone especially Police and are openly willing to shoot their way out of a situation that they should realistically lose/surrender to, for example 4-8 Trojan officers around 4-5 gang members, that in addition to the fact that these gangs are now all grouping up together and actively involving themselves in their allied gangs situations (Ballas and Triads last night as an example, circumventing the gang caps once more), we do fear for our lives, but at the same time we have a duty of care for the public and when innocent members of the public are hit in crossfire (Which happens far to frequently, learn to aim! smh) then LSPS need to step in, it's a matter of saving life or limb when it comes to RP.

Absolutely false. Firstly Last night there wasn't even 25 triads and Ballas together there was around 15 people I would say. From our side we played that out as best as we could. We wanted to get our gang member out so he didnt have to face prison time (something that doesn't happen a lot - prison transport breaks). As you know we aimed to hit it on the way up to the prison however the police clocked on and took him all the way to paleto. We had people scouting every possible way that you could transfer the prisoner. We then saw Jay martinez (High up trojan officer) on his own filling his car up, so we took advantage and kidnapped him. This then allowed us to negotiate with you a trade, man for man. We played it out as best we could. You tried multiple decoy runs but we knew everything that was going on due to multiple scouts. The situation lasted for about 3hrs. it could've been quicker but police tried to stall for as long as possible, i assume to get as many numbers up in paleto as possible. However in the end we agreed a location to do the swap and not a single bullet was fired. i dont understand how you can complain about our RP there it was perfect.

 

[Readshaw95]

Ngl I agree with this statement, been around for around 9-10 months seen the server in fantastic places I personally thought that when police use to watch gang fights gather evidence on the two gangs then move in when the fight is over was better and more enjoyable  for everyone involved. Also for just running in an shooting I know a lot of people that aren’t happy about this at all and does ruin there experience on the server. I can remember when ballas pushed the aztecas turf  as soon as police arrived they opened fire on the aztecas killing them straight away no RP involved. I think personally there is a time and place for police to open fire but getting involved in two maybe more gangs fighting doesn’t seem to value there life.  

 

[Paru]

You should defenitly try to get a hostage and negotiate with cops or do an hostage situation in general just to see how much "Care for the public" they have. I would say out of a total of like 5 hostage situation 4 of them are bullshit and cops just wanting to do something else so they just hurry it up because they CBA.

Not blaming cops in general its obvious that there is bad apples on both sides no denying that but the good apples on the gangs side end up losing more than the good apples on the cop side if they die or some bullshit happens.

My point is adding something for cops to be more engaged and actually be afraid of losing some stuff is not a bad idea to level the playing field a bit otherwise whats happening its probably gonna continue to happen because most people have had enough of losing stuff to the bad apples of the bunch and thats why they team up or end up helping each other sometimes.

You may not think we're worried about losing equipment but we are, we've come close to having zero Police budget before, I doubt devs would allow us to use it all but it has happened before and we've been told off previously for losing cars/equipment in general.

 

[PJ Adams]

My two pence regarding this is actually the opposite, Gangs should fear Police presence and instead of walking around with an Uzi out, should probably consider running away instead of trying to push and fight, last night was yet another example of gangs not giving a shit about Police and taking them hostage in front of other officers Trojan officers at that, the meta at present is that gangs aren't scared of anyone especially Police and are openly willing to shoot their way out of a situation that they should realistically lose/surrender to, for example 4-8 Trojan officers around 4-5 gang members, that in addition to the fact that these gangs are now all grouping up together and actively involving themselves in their allied gangs situations (Ballas and Triads last night as an example, circumventing the gang caps once more), we do fear for our lives, but at the same time we have a duty of care for the public and when innocent members of the public are hit in crossfire (Which happens far to frequently, learn to aim! smh) then LSPS need to step in, it's a matter of saving life or limb when it comes to RP.

The fact you've come out and said this without 0 knowledge of any scenarios gone on with Triads and Ballas baffles me. Triads and Ballas in game formed an alliance and said we'd always have each others back if anything was needed. Last night the plan was to kidnap a police officer and trade them for the member of the Ballas that was arrested earlier. We tried hard to make it as fun as possible for police and not a single shot was fired last night from both the gangs and the police which makes a change so it seems like you're trying to penalise gangs here once again instead of enjoying the RP scenario that is going on. I feel like your ideal outcome would have been the gangs in cuffs and the police to "win". Whereas, I think police did win. They got their Sergeant back safe and sound and now have evidence of Ballas kidnapping police for later use. 

I even messaged in ooc thank you for the great RP tonight to the cops because in my experience especially lately the RP has been awful from police and this is not in anyway targeting a faction, just a certain few people in it. We've been told by staff in gang leads chat to improve and we're doing our best but when I see stuff like this it's pretty annoying because even after the situation I was rewarding everyone in the situation for doing such a good job OOC as well and to keep it up 

 

[Jay Jay]

In hostage situation.. when police decide to get in and shoot you .. even if you kill the hostage with 3 bullets in head the nhs will get him up and thats a victory to the police , there should be an option to finish the bleeding people.

 

[Noah Williams]

Well I would definitely look at it in the sense that we as a server are striving for serious rp. Guns in the UK are not as prevalent as they are in the server. I would be happy with the fact that you can buy a gun at the price of 250k. Keep in mind there is training for weapons and guns within the police and they take that very seriously. Let just strive for more serious rp. If you make any changes it has to be fair on both sides of the aisle.    

 

[Richard]

So what do you suggest we do? /e sitchair for the next hour?

Sounds like fun!

 

[Amon Long]

yea, no

the only thing that will end up happening is people purposely going around to shoot and kill police, meaning they can do whatever they want since no police is around
I like the idea of police perhaps should be punished in some way, but forcing them to not do the RP they came onto the server for is not the way no matter how you look at it

my POV not staff's and so on

A work around for this could be a situational thing being if police are kidnapped and shot and its not a mass roleplay event like a gang shootout gone skew 

Then they wait half an hour before being able to return to duty or this rule is negated completely and with the NLR they can return to duty not knowing it happened 

For example if 2 chance cunts Rob some 2 police officers on patrol together and kill those police officers the NLR takes effect 

But if those same 2 police officers are killed as a result of a police bust on a gang war gone wrong resulting in a shootout with multiple downed on both sides and these police officers don't recieve the medical attention and bleed out through whatever means they then have to wait maybe not an entire restarts duration but a to be decided at a later dates ammount of time (longer than the NLR 15 minutes) it would bring a greater risk to the police involved jumping in gun heavy 

Just an idea.

 

[Kevin Wright]

If you read it right then no, that is not what I said.

Let things go as they are and more and more reports will come from people. Both sides included. I have had numerous situations, and from people commenting here. But I dont want to go around reporting people, because then yes, they cant play the game. I have made a suggestion, take it or leave it. My suggestion doesnt mean anything will change. It might just become that combat rez is fine by server rules for the police. This I have also seen, but not reported. Even with all the footage.

This is not a debate about everything wrong between different sides, just a suggestion to make police think twice about a situation, as crims do. Yes it is a choice on whichever character you play. All I am saying, are officers worried about dying? What are you loosing for dying? What do crims loose when they die or get arrested with a gun. They loose a lot of money. And yes, that is what escalates some situations I agree. Because the crims dont wanna loose what they have on them. But what are cops thinking in those situations that they could potentially die.

Just some input fomr myself, if you want something to improve then you need to take some kind of action, if you don't liase with the people involved or report them then it continues.

Now as for the actual suggestion, while to a lot of officers the value of equipment is invisible in their own eyes, I myself have actually seen command officers have to melt down assetts from evidence in order to get funding for our equipment. This may be less about officer valueing their equipement and more about command members being stricter with those below them in these situations where they constantly lose equipment due to their negligence. As for the valuing their lives this is a rule issue and if you want it to be improved then you need to make those reports and liasons when needed. I could go into a long rant how X and Y don't Value their lives but that won't help the suggestion moving forward rather just turn the entire thread into He does this and She does that. I have seen officers already have their gun privledges removed for not following the strict guidelines on when and how to use the weaponry we have available and getting those permissions is not the easiest either which should also be considered in this suggestion.

As for gangs having to spend their money and time to get said weapons, though it's done as quitely as possible, the police force are in the same boat and it's not always thought about by officers, however in the end as a civilian you take a gun to a situation you have to be prepared to lose it because the Police are required to be equipped to deal with the situations the civilians are creating themselves. Imagine being robbed and being told, sorry we can't come help you, we don't have equipment to deal with the situation at this time.

TLDR; There is value in police quipment, it's just not always seen by both sides and the way forward isn't a game mechanic imo but internally inside the factions themselves

In hostage situation.. when police decide to get in and shoot you .. even if you kill the hostage with 3 bullets in head the nhs will get him up and thats a victory to the police , there should be an option to finish the bleeding people.

tbh that is on the hostages side, if I've been shot in the head multiple times then I am dead and I'd try to let the NHS known to not revive me