Report a Player - PC Jamessss [7512] - Other

[Joe Malley]

Your In-game name

Malley Atlas

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

PC Jamessss [7512]

Date of the incident

27/11/18

Time of the incident (GMT)

1830

What best describes this incident ?

Other

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1

Please (in detail) describe the incident

The Incident begins when a fellow Poseidon member, Fabrizio, is caught by the police with a stolen police vehicle. He was apprehended and taken to the HMP. When he was taken we decided to attempt to get him back via a peaceful negotiation even being prepared to pay for any damages he had caused. First we checked agios PD to determine if he was there but when it was clear he was instead at the HMP we moved over there, about 700m away from the HMP we received an ATC informing a "Poseidon MH9 with armed men on the benches" (at 3:22 in the video) to leave the "queens airspace" I replied with a message that we had no hostile intent and were planning on landing an unarmed negotiator at the prison to speak to the officers inside. We dropped off the negotiator, Nuclear Atlas, and then after circling the area for a few seconds, we vacated the airspace to a distance of 1.2km. I should say that since we left Agios we had an N.P.A.S helicopter following us the entire time. We then received a second ATC (6:59 in the video) stating the exact same thing as before and for us to leave the airspace. Again I sent a reply informing the police officers that we were here to negotiate and not to attack. We are then shot down by the police helicopter that had been following us, The pilot, Wiisy Atlas, killed by the same person who had sent the ATC messages (8:06 in the video).

There are several reasons as to why this turn of events in my opinion constitute poor roleplay from the police officer involved in the situation. Firstly I will quote rule 10.9

( When communicating with an aircraft; 1 ATC message must be sent clearly indicating the target (colour, location and type) and stating intention to fire upon the aircraft followed by enough time to comply to said message.)

Within PC Jamessss’ ATCs the location of the target was not clearly indicated, as we did have multiple helicopters operating at the same time. Furthermore the Time to comply with the message and the demands itself were incredibly vague. In order to get back to “our lands” we would have to fly across the entirety of the pyrgos gulf and even worse than that is I have heard multiple officers in roleplay say that our lands don't exist and they still belong to them so is the ATC asking us to fly to another island or something? Even worse is that both ATCs said that they would be “taking us down” again this is pretty vague and could constitute any number of different actions for example instead of just aiming straight for the pilot and killing the whole helicopter and starting a firefight, the officer could have instead aimed for the engine, rotor or tail rotor any one of these targets would have instead force the pilot to auto rotate the helicopter to the ground or vacate the area. If this had occurred the crew of the helicopter could have continued roleplay upon reaching the ground.

In addition we had a negotiator on the ground speaking to the police officers, instead of sending us a “leave or die” message they could have communicated through our negotiator, the cops on the ground could have asked us to vacate to a set distance and the negotiator on the ground would be able to communicate this to us. But instead of doing this the police opened fire, the results of this action also ruined any roleplay that was occurring on the ground between the negotiator, cops and captured poseidon member. The members on the ground were forced into a firefight because of the actions of PC Jamessss. when he opened fire despite us communicating back to him that we wished to resolve this peacefully any hopes of a fun and peaceful roleplay situation was ruined for the other members of poseidon and the negotiating cops.

Once the situation was over we attempted to resolve the situation with PC Jamessss, however, we could not come to a resolution and he remains adamant that his actions were the correct ones.

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeKjGdpfMow&feature=youtu.be
This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

Yes

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

 

[Jamessss]

Firstly I will start with breaking up your two main points they you've made in this initial report:

1. Rule 10.9 wasn't fully followed as you feel because the location wasn't specified and you felt the ATC was overall too vague.

2. You feel that the actions taken based on the ATC ruined roleplay opportunity on the ground.

1. Rule 10.9

Within PC Jamessss’ ATCs the location of the target was not clearly indicated, as we did have multiple helicopters operating at the same time. Furthermore the Time to comply with the message and the demands itself were incredibly vague. In order to get back to “our lands” we would have to fly across the entirety of the pyrgos gulf and even worse than that is I have heard multiple officers in roleplay say that our lands don't exist and they still belong to them so is the ATC asking us to fly to another island or something? Even worse is that both ATCs said that they would be “taking us down” again this is pretty vague and could constitute any number of different actions for example instead of just aiming straight for the pilot and killing the whole helicopter and starting a firefight, the officer could have instead aimed for the engine, rotor or tail rotor any one of these targets would have instead force the pilot to auto rotate the helicopter to the ground or vacate the area. If this had occurred the crew of the helicopter could have continued roleplay upon reaching the ground.
 

Within PC Jamessss’ ATCs the location of the target was not clearly indicated, as  we did have multiple helicopters operating at the same time.

Upon watching the video multiple times I cannot locate any of these other helicopter you mention to have operating. This leads me to believe you were fully aware of the target of the ATC and therefore the demands that it set out. This is furthermore supported by the rapid response I received from you afterward shown at 3:18 in the video you've provided. Upon receiving your response I could not confirm that I was talking to a member of the helicopter we'd been following from Agios until at 4:48 I received another text in response to mine in which u failed to hide your gridref. This allowed me to positively confirm you as a member of the helicopter that we had previously ATC'd.

The Time to comply with the message and the demands itself were incredibly vague. In order to get back to “our lands” we would have to fly across the entirety of the pyrgos gulf and even worse than that is I have heard multiple officers in roleplay say that our lands don't exist and they still belong to them so is the ATC asking us to fly to another island or something?

Here are both ATC's for easy access:

https://gyazo.com/038c6449bdad07b4dd46763649ed294a

https://gyazo.com/65973993080d9c4f157b08d151f8fbcb

You've mentioned the time to comply was rather vague. Inside both of these ATC's you've been told to comply with them "immediatly" or the actions enclosed will be undertaken. I would expect based on the adverb "immediatly" which goes the verb "leave" and then in the second ATC "return" gives you a perfect time frame for which you should comply of which just a few definitions would say:

- At once; instantly

- Without any intervening time.

Both ATCs said that they would be “taking us down” again this is pretty vague and could constitute any number of different actions

I can completely understand were you're coming from here but both as a long term members of this community I think you can agreed with me that being too specific in any form of initiation gets you in just as much trouble for example as an officer if I were to initiate on a car's tires and the proceeded to accidentally shoot out the drive this would no be considered ok as I have not told the person in the car they'll be harmed. Due to the mentioned factors and a few others I chose to not limit the actions that could be taken hoping to ensure that a situation where we knit pick at the details doesn't occur. Unfortunately in this case it wasn't avoided.

As for this:

Instead of just aiming straight for the pilot and killing the whole helicopter and starting a firefight, the officer could have instead aimed for the engine, rotor or tail rotor any one of these targets would have instead force the pilot to auto rotate the helicopter to the ground or vacate the area. If this had occurred the crew of the helicopter could have continued roleplay upon reaching the ground.

I cannot really comment on this as it enters in the the realm of ifs, buts and maybes where no one knows because it's all just a theory of a future that didn't happen. I will how ever point out that this also could have gone a completely different way where either, I failed to disable the helicopter with my 5.56 (highly possible) and u returned fire and killed both me and my pilot. Or on the other hand I could have successfully disabled the helicopter with the limited options I had and you could of attempted and auto rotation, landing etc and once on the ground proceeded to open fire up my helicopter.

2. Ruining/low Roleplay

Within PC Jamessss’ ATCs the location of the target was not clearly indicated, as we did have multiple helicopters operating at the same time. Furthermore the Time to comply with the message and the demands itself were incredibly vague. In order to get back to “our lands” we would have to fly across the entirety of the pyrgos gulf and even worse than that is I have heard multiple officers in roleplay say that our lands don't exist and they still belong to them so is the ATC asking us to fly to another island or something? Even worse is that both ATCs said that they would be “taking us down” again this is pretty vague and could constitute any number of different actions for example instead of just aiming straight for the pilot and killing the whole helicopter and starting a firefight, the officer could have instead aimed for the engine, rotor or tail rotor any one of these targets would have instead force the pilot to auto rotate the helicopter to the ground or vacate the area. If this had occurred the crew of the helicopter could have continued roleplay upon reaching the ground.

In addition we had a negotiator on the ground speaking to the police officers, instead of sending us a “leave or die” message they could have communicated through our negotiator, the cops on the ground could have asked us to vacate to a set distance and the negotiator on the ground would be able to communicate this to us. But instead of doing this the police opened fire, the results of this action also ruined any roleplay that was occurring on the ground between the negotiator, cops and captured poseidon member. The members on the ground were forced into a firefight because of the actions of PC Jamessss. when he opened fire despite us communicating back to him that we wished to resolve this peacefully any hopes of a fun and peaceful roleplay situation was ruined for the other members of poseidon and the negotiating cops.

In addition we had a negotiator on the ground speaking to the police officers, instead of sending us a “leave or die” message they could have communicated through our negotiator, the cops on the ground could have asked us to vacate to a set distance and the negotiator on the ground would be able to communicate this to us.

Again this is hard to comment on as it is complete theory of alternative actions that could have been taken. However with this in mind you fails to have understood that both ATC's weren't requests they were demands so anything the negotiator would or could have said would have been redundant to initial ATC and secondary ATC you received and acknowledged both times.

Here are both ATC's for easy access:

https://gyazo.com/038c6449bdad07b4dd46763649ed294a

https://gyazo.com/65973993080d9c4f157b08d151f8fbcb

 Instead of doing this the police opened fire, the results of this action also ruined any roleplay that was occurring on the ground between the negotiator, cops and captured poseidon member. The members on the ground were forced into a firefight because of the actions of PC Jamessss. when he opened fire despite us communicating back to him that we wished to resolve this peacefully any hopes of a fun and peaceful roleplay situation was ruined for the other members of poseidon and the negotiating cops.

As for this I'm deeply sorry that you feel I've ruined the roleplay experience of all the other people attending but I should have hoped that my second ATC after your initial responses saying you were peaceful would have shown you that we still saw you as a threat to the security of the prison and needed you to leave "immediately".

As for why I decided to take the helicopter down by eliminating the pilot. At the time this seemed like the safest option to value the life of both me and my pilot due to the limited visibility of other vulnerable parts of the helicopter show at 8:04 I couldn't confidently have taken down the helicopter in any other way. However I assure you if the helicopter had been positioned in a more vulnerable position, possible side on, I would have firstly taken out the engine or tail rotor depending on what was most viable/accessible at the time.

I hope this clears up any miss understanding and we can both go our separate ways knowing we dealt with this officially and in an unbiased way.

Kind regards from,

PC Jamessss of The City of Kavala

Badge number : 7125

 

[Joe Malley]

You've mentioned the time to comply was rather vague. Inside both of these ATC's you've been told to comply with them "immediatly" or the actions enclosed will be undertaken. I would expect based on the adverb "immediatly" which goes the verb "leave" and then in the second ATC "return" gives you a perfect time frame for which you should comply of which just a few definitions would say:

- At once; instantly

- Without any intervening time.

It seems I may have misworded my initial post when I said the time to comply was vague, I meant that your demands, in general, were vague. For example, you said that we needed to go back to our side of the island immediately, now the hummingbird cannot teleport and we certainly could not cross the entirety of the Pyrgos gulf in and instance.

Additionally, your helicopter followed us from agios, you sent us an initial ATC close to the prison, then we left the area to 1.2km away and you then sent another ATC. You were following us the entire time, you were not using the ATC messaging system to control an area, you were using it to control us. This is the equivalent of telling a person on the server "Leave or die" and then following them to where they go and then repeating yourselves. What if you followed us back to our lands and then decided to ATC us again? Hypothetically you could have repeated this process and forced us to go into a tiny corner in the map.

attempted and auto rotation, landing etc and once on the ground proceeded to open fire up my helicopter.

We would not have done this since it is covered by rule: 

(3.7) Baiting - Baiting for the sake of a gunfight is not roleplay. Punishment is a ban. Examples: Flying over someone with a chopper waiting for warning shots to instantly shoot them back, robbing a service station with the intent of a gunfight, etc.

Although in the rule it specifically states warning shots, I think ATC messages can be applied, if we were to land and return fire at you that could be considered baiting and as such posedion would not have done this.

we still saw you as a threat to the security of the prison and needed you to leave "immediately".

when the second ATC was sent we were 1.2km away from the prison authovering in place with our weapons lowered. Furthermore, the Poseidon negotiator was unarmed at the prison, if we wished to be a threat we most certainly would not be hovering next to you while sending messages back asking that you abstain from opening fire. But instead of choosing to engage with us via the messages you chose to fire after receiving messages ensuring you that we had no hostile intent.

 

[Jamessss]

It seems I may have misworded my initial post when I said the time to comply was vague, I meant that your demands, in general, were vague. For example, you said that we needed to go back to our side of the island immediately, now the hummingbird cannot teleport and we certainly could not cross the entirety of the Pyrgos gulf in and instance.

It seems you're once again playing with the words of my ATC. I am fully aware helicopters are unable to teleport and you cannot cross a gulf in an instance. The ATC simply requests you return to the side of the island in which you believe you own the airspace by right of claim.

Additionally, your helicopter followed us from agios, you sent us an initial ATC close to the prison, then we left the area to 1.2km away and you then sent another ATC. You were following us the entire time, you were not using the ATC messaging system to control an area, you were using it to control us. This is the equivalent of telling a person on the server "Leave or die" and then following them to where they go and then repeating yourselves. What if you followed us back to our lands and then decided to ATC us again? Hypothetically you could have repeated this process and forced us to go into a tiny corner in the map.

As for your point I was not controlling an area this is completely untrue also I was controlling a particularly large area of the map you still had roughly half of the map, "your half" to retreat into once you're inside of that airspace my ATC no longer holds any control over the movement of your helicopter. I think we both know that no one is going abuse the ATC to the point of having u in a small corner in the map and it's a bit ludicrous you would suggest I would do it. Even if I wanted to I simple don't have the time and patience to preform such a pointless feat. 

When the second ATC was sent we were 1.2km away from the prison authovering in place with our weapons lowered. Furthermore, the Poseidon negotiator was unarmed at the prison, if we wished to be a threat we most certainly would not be hovering next to you while sending messages back asking that you abstain from opening fire. But instead of choosing to engage with us via the messages you chose to fire after receiving messages ensuring you that we had no hostile intent.

You have to understand in roleplay a member of a large drug cartel who've "taken by force" half of the island your meant to be protecting is now suggesting they have no hostile intentions while having 2 armed men on benches who've not considered to hide their firearms at all is not that believable. Not to mention near the start of the recording I can clearly hear you personally suggesting taking an officer hostage for the means of getting your guy out of a prison sentence he'd earned himself by "baiting" the police into a chase that lasted a considerable amount of time and only ended because he crashed the car. Now I will say I'm not bothered by this in the slightest as I don't see the point in pulling the 3.7 rule out at every opportunity.

As for the fact you were 1.2km away this firstly is still clearly not following the demands set out in the two ATC's but also as an experienced pilot myself I can confidently say 1.2km for a MH-9 is nothing it would take roughly 10-15 seconds for you to respond to any situation near the prison therefore still making you a considerable threat.

I'm also failing to see why this could not have been done as a PCC as one of the main issues you seem to have is me shooting Wiisy out of the helicopter which to my knowledge doesn't break any server rules and your other main issue with the ATC although also having a server rule for it is still mainly a police procedure problem.

 So I'm interested why you felt you had to report. What are you hoping to achieve from this?

 

[Joe Malley]

I'm also failing to see why this could not have been done as a PCC as one of the main issues you seem to have is me shooting Wiisy out of the helicopter which to my knowledge doesn't break any server rules and your other main issue with the ATC although also having a server rule for it is still mainly a police procedure problem.

(10.8) Police are not allowed to execute players. This was abolished in UK law in 1965 . (Punishment is a ban)

Your fired on the pilot of the heli, a stationary helicopter that was sending messages to you saying we had no intentions to shoot back, the helicopter was no threat to your life or any other officers lives, and we said as much via in-game text messages. This is a server rule, not a police rule hence the report.

 

[Jamessss]

(10.8) Police are not allowed to execute players. This was abolished in UK law in 1965 . (Punishment is a ban)

Your fired on the pilot of the heli, a stationary helicopter that was sending messages to you saying we had no intentions to shoot back, the helicopter was no threat to your life or any other officers lives, and we said as much via in-game text messages. This is a server rule, not a police rule hence the report.

Now you're just picking at the fine details of things. I did not execute anyone in the video you can clearly see you aiming towards my helicopter moments before yourselves were taken down. If this is not threatening behavior I'm not really sure what is. Your high power rifle (Mk14) could have easily done some serious damage to myself, my pilot and the helicopter if you had opened fire. In this situation I have simply acted in the most appropriate way to value the lives of the officers in the helicopter and the condition of the police equipment itself.

So I will ask you once again. What are you hoping to achieve from this report? 

 

[Joe Malley]

I believe further discussion will just result in us repeating ourselves, I think my view of the situation is quite clear and I will now leave this to staff to make a decision.

 

[Valen Bell]

After reading the responses I got a picture in my head of how this had gone down, more so the ending part with the death it seemed like you had no possible way to avoid killing anyone in the aircraft but after watching the video I can say without a doubt that is complete and utter bullshit, both airframes are still and unmoving so there is nothing stopping the NPAS pilot from moving around to a better angle for the engine/tail rotor and disabling them that method. You mention as well that you, in the end, had no other choice due to your own safety and the pilots but that as well, is complete and utter bullshit, you are not forced to pull the trigger and made that choice on your own accord and indeed ruining any roleplay happening nearby if a gunfight did indeed break out due to your actions.

You decided it would be safer to just take the pilot out instead of disabling and again your excuse being for your own and the pilots safety when as above you could have instead not fired and ensured your safety but using that as an excuse to kill is not alright and concerns me as if you have some minor interaction with someone who jumps into a car and tries to speed away and you've said at some point that you would take his tires out only for you to then aim for him instead when he tries to escape and killing him then turning around using the excuse you have used above and does not lead to me to believe for one moment that doing so helps towards any quality time but rather skipping through everything to the end to the point the other party has no chance to dictate their side of the roleplay through their actions as at that point they can do jack other than scream in pain.

But, regardless of the above and onto the main issue I have here is that you have been here long enough and should have the common sense to know that you cannot dictate to someone with the ATC that they need to leave "Queens airspace" hell, that in itself means fuckall as the Cartel could have it in their mind that the whole Island is their airspace while the Police believe the whole airspace is theirs completely and is still argued to be their airspace and land that the cartel occupies currently. There are no drawn lines or markers that dictate this zone of "Queens airspace" so you may as well tell them to fuck off into space, hell maybe that is part of it as well? Who knows, either way, it does not play here at all and even more so when you take in the fact you issued the same message from two different locations quite far from each other. For the sake of it being clear as well it does not matter what you say so you may not at any point tell people to stay away from a large out of reason and take action on those that don't listen or otherwise see it and I would potential expect someone newer to not come to that conclusion when in a rushed/risky situation of blood pumping while new found knowledge and understanding of how our server operates but you are not new at all and should know better by this point. 

More than likely this would have been strict warning but after reading your replies here on this post you have got in your head that you are crime-free and could have done nothing in this better and then with your last post slyly trying to bring in that someone else has broken some rule to alleviate yourself of any crimes. Attitude leaves much to be desired and I think you need a wakeup call.

PC Jamessss [7125] - Action Taken (10.9, 2.2)

 

[Valen Bell]

Thank you for doing your part in keeping the community clean.

Your report has been approved and action has been taken against the reported player.

If you are out of pocket due to this case please now open a compensation request here, Do make sure to mention this report.