Report a Player - Soap, AT. Joseph - RDM

[Delta]

Your In-game name

INS Delta [7791]

Name of the player(s) you are reporting

Soap, AT. Joseph

Date of the incident

31/01/19

Time of the incident (GMT)

318

What best describes this incident ?

RDM

Which server did the incident take place on

Server 1

Please (in detail) describe the incident

While patrolling around we saw an Orca landed illegally, so we move up to investigate. We talked to the owner who came to his vehicle and we asked why he had landed there. After a brief and non hostile conversation explaining that he had landed as he was low on fuel, he told us to put our hands up or his friends will shoot. He had no gun, and there were no other people in sight. I didn't take it as a threat as there was no reason to do so until he pulled a pistol and said nothing. I feared for my life and hit him over the head and ran. I was then promptly shot

Link to any evidence (Youtube/Screenshot)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGDWvdv0I8c&feature=youtu.be
This report is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth!

Yes

You tried to resolve the situation with the player(s) before reporting

No

This is not a revenge report (Abuse will lead to forum/community bans)

Yes

 

[UK-JC]

I want to break this down into small chunks of the rules, and ill address what i feel went wrong in this situation.

To start, Soap could have role played with you guys more. but a police officer jumping into somebody's Orca that has been landed illegal doesn't seem very professional in my eyes.

You were TOLD to place your hands on your head,  if you make a radio call you would be knocked on the head and that there were multiple armed rebels in the area. I find it very odd that your instant response was to pass it off as a joke, and then when a weapon was pulled out you punch him in the head and run for your life, instead of arresting the man.

To me, being sat on the roof listening to the people talking both in-game and through my radio, I hear an initiation made to a police officer and i see my friend knocked out on the floor and a said police officer running away towards the hill. 

We have tried to take a police officer hostage and we have implied that there are many armed rebels in the area. Our guy on the ground is knocked out and there is a police officer running next to him , away from him, with a weapon out. I understand that you then holstered it, but i've seen you running around with it out and i have made a decision that after that i wouldn't have been able to get myself off of the roof and away with my teammate safely without removing the two officers that pose the threat from the situation.

Now, i do not have a video of this situation but i do not think one is necessary.  I don't think this was a case of RDM, all of the information as to what was going to unfold was within the role play that was had between the officer in question and the officer that was in the heli.

I would however like to apologise, as i do feel like there was a log more role play that could have been had between the men on the ground, moreover in the future i do ask that Officers also consider role playing with the "captor". For example, you thought the initiation was a joke until he pulled out a pistol, however your instant reaction to that was to knock him out and run. I can assure you that that level of role play inst something that has stuck to my name as i always take the rout of role play over a gunfight. however in this situation i saw it as necessary, and perhaps i made the wrong decision.

In addition i do understand the concern about Soap initiation without his weapon out and i do feel like that is probably the main issue here, from my point of view. But i fear that even if soap had initiated lethal force with a weapon out, the course of action would have been the same. I will talk to Soap about the dodgy initiation as i do feel like it needs to be addressed.

Further more i do not like that no effort was made to contact or soap about conversing on team speak, and that the course of role play seemingly ended with that role play. Soap made it out, with the officer who jumped into our heli in ties with no communication or GPS. Soap continued to role play with the officer, and made a couple attempted to use the officer to bargain. I can explain more the role play that continued on between Soap and the officer he had hostage if requested. but from what i can tell no effort was made to continue that in game.

After the situation i was arrested, and i tried to talk with the police and role play with them ( to some extent we did role play with each other) however it ended with me in prison with a 20 Year sentence.

Overall in my personal opinion i feel like there was issues on both sides of the big picture, however it took its course and ended as it did. But i would still love to speak to the lads involved in this on team speak as i feel like a player report isnt necessary and could potential be a waste of staff time. So please, contact me or Soap and we will be more than happy to hop into liaison.

(PS sorry if i repeat myself, its hard to keep track of multiple trains of thought at once  )

 

[Delta]

Sorry for the late reply, been focusing on irl stuff in my time out of game.

1. The issue is not solely off soaps rp, and professional behaviour is best left to pcc's rather than reports

2. The conversion had with soap was completely non hostile. So when he changes subject to telling me to put my hands up with no weapon or other visible threat, I pass it off. It's not uncommon for hobos to do this just for a reaction.

3. Regardless of the information passed to you, you are responsible for the shots fired and to make sure proper initiation was made.

4. See above, as far as I'm aware both of you did something wrong, soap for hobo initiation, and you for killing without proper initiation 

5. See above

6. I knocked out soap as he pulled a gun out. He said nothing for 3/4 seconds so fearing for my life I hit and ran. Knocking people out does not count for lethal initiation 

7. Regardless to how the situation could have panned out, what happened happened. That's where the issue is, regardless of whether the situation would have panned out the same

8. The reason I did not make an attempt to resolve as a) I saw it as a blatant rule break, and b) it was very late at this point, and even later when I was out of the rp scenario ( ended near the 4am restart). I did not want to sit in a liaison for how ever much longer and waste time. I also had irl responsibilities to do during the next day, so I stuck the report as to not time it out. 

Additionally I appreciate the offer to resolve, but having spoken to other members of the police, I have found this is not the first time people have had an issue with you. Plus, from the reply I believe we do not agree on where the problems lie and the rule break at hand. So to avoid wasting time arguing I will be continuing the report.

 

[UK-JC]

Sorry for the late reply, been focusing on irl stuff in my time out of game.

1. The issue is not solely off soaps rp, and professional behaviour is best left to pcc's rather than reports

2. The conversion had with soap was completely non hostile. So when he changes subject to telling me to put my hands up with no weapon or other visible threat, I pass it off. It's not uncommon for hobos to do this just for a reaction.

3. Regardless of the information passed to you, you are responsible for the shots fired and to make sure proper initiation was made.

4. See above, as far as I'm aware both of you did something wrong, soap for hobo initiation, and you for killing without proper initiation 

5. See above

6. I knocked out soap as he pulled a gun out. He said nothing for 3/4 seconds so fearing for my life I hit and ran. Knocking people out does not count for lethal initiation 

7. Regardless to how the situation could have panned out, what happened happened. That's where the issue is, regardless of whether the situation would have panned out the same

8. The reason I did not make an attempt to resolve as a) I saw it as a blatant rule break, and b) it was very late at this point, and even later when I was out of the rp scenario ( ended near the 4am restart). I did not want to sit in a liaison for how ever much longer and waste time. I also had irl responsibilities to do during the next day, so I stuck the report as to not time it out. 

Additionally I appreciate the offer to resolve, but having spoken to other members of the police, I have found this is not the first time people have had an issue with you. Plus, from the reply I believe we do not agree on where the problems lie and the rule break at hand. So to avoid wasting time arguing I will be continuing the report.

That is fair enough i guess - i'm not going to try and change your mind on this as its clear that it is set. However, in the future no matter the time if you plan on reporting somebody asking them to liaison is not just to talk about what happened, it gives them a heads up and allows them to clip the situation (if they're recording). So in that regard please next time be a little more considerate as a recording from another persons perspective could change the outcome of the situation.

Id also like to make a few more points as to your behaviour, not to try and call you out or cause trouble, more so to clear up some knowledge as for the rules. 

When you say you feared for your life, you were initiated on by an unarmed hobo who later pulled out a pistol on you. You outnumbered that hobo 2-1 if you count the near by police officer, 3-1 if you count the officer in the heli (questionable behaviour there too, doesn't seem exactly professional to get yourself nearly and exactly locked into a rebels heli.) and even more, 4+-1 if you include the officer(s) in the city that were close enough to respond. My knowledge of the police suggests that they do not have to exactly comply and "value" their life (sorry for wording it like that i couldn't think of another way) unless outnumbered 3-1 by rebels, and as far as i'm aware the "friends and alies" isn't included in that number if it is not obvious that they are there.

That is where my judgement came on this situation, considering you valued your life so much around 1 hobo with a pistol (that you could see) when you heavily outnumbered and out armed him, i saw that knock out (i'm not happy about the instant knock out after upholstering as well, that annoyed me as i;ve seen many rebels get into trouble about it but i guess you "punched" him ) and an officer re-positioning, preempting a gunfight, and thats where i assumed that the initiation was fair.

However, my judgement isn't always correct. I'm Human. I do understand that verbally there might not have been scientific initiation to open fire, but in the moment i saw the puzzle pieces and something did not seem right, and i concluded that the gunfight by that point had already started.

As I've said, i could have been entirely wrong to assume that and, if they admins deem that, i'm sorry for what happened, it is a complete waste of your time and now the admins time that this station occurred.

on the other hand i do hope that the "rules" / guidelines in the aforementioned get cleared up by people with the appropriate knowledge so that, hoping i font get a ban for this, a situation like this never occurs again.

Thanks, Joseph.

 

[Kempi Anderson]

Your report is currently being reviewed, Please be patient while the evidence is reviewed

Please keep checking this report regularly just in case the reviewing staff member has any questions

Thank you for your report and you doing your part to keep our community clean!

 

[Kempi Anderson]

Before continuing I've got some questions for both of you. Also if you have anything else to add this would be the time*
@UK-JC
Would you be able to get Soap to give his side of the story? @unrhsthshaknown (I believe this is soap correct me if I'm wrong)
What was the exact reason you shot?
Do you feel like the situation could be seen as bait to start stuff with the police?

@Delta
Do you think you knocking Soap out could've started the situation rather then the "hobo initiation"
Whilst a threat was made to you the person "initiating" on you still pulled out a weapon to which you responded by knocking them out why do you feel that the "initiation" was a rulebreak?

Additionally I appreciate the offer to resolve, but having spoken to other members of the police, I have found this is not the first time people have had an issue with you.

Please specify this as I do not see any records of the police having issues with Joseph?

 

[Delta]

@Kempi Anderson while it is possible that the knocking out triggered the shots, I can't say for certain. But as far as I am aware knocking someone out doesn't constitute sufficient roleplay to kill someone.
A weapon was pulled out which is when I expected a follow up like "how about now officer?"/"put your hands up now" or something like that, but after a few seconds of waiting for some sort of initiation and having a gun aimed in my face I decided to try to escape. If bringing the pistol out at the end resolves the hobo initiation aspect (which I believe it wouldn't as the initiation at that point had no threat so therefore didn't count or whatever), then I still the believe that the situation was still poor in terms of properly initiating.

As for the people who have had issues in one way or another, I won't name them in public as its up to them if they want to be named, but I can offer it through a private channel. I believe the situations were not reported as they may not have been direct rule breaks but on the border, or lacked sufficient evidence to get it processed.  

 

[UK-JC]

Before continuing I've got some questions for both of you. Also if you have anything else to add this would be the time*
@UK-JC
Would you be able to get Soap to give his side of the story? @unrhsthshaknown (I believe this is soap correct me if I'm wrong)
What was the exact reason you shot?
Do you feel like the situation could be seen as bait to start stuff with the police?

@Delta
Do you think you knocking Soap out could've started the situation rather then the "hobo initiation"
Whilst a threat was made to you the person "initiating" on you still pulled out a weapon to which you responded by knocking them out why do you feel that the "initiation" was a rulebreak?

Please specify this as I do not see any records of the police having issues with Joseph?

Ill speak to soap to get him to reply.

I do feel like this situation could be seen as bait, however every situation that ends in a gunfight can usually be tabled as bait. we were originally there to rob the gas station, however we saw very expensive clean police vests and changed our plans.

I shot because me and soap agreed on the change of course, and soap usually makes sure that if shots need to be fired they are properly initiated. i watched the situation unfold from a roof and felt like the officers were setting up to shoot soap after the knock out, and after assuming that the role play had included the correct initiations i took my shots.

 

[unrhsthshaknown]

Would you be able to get Soap to give his side of the story?

From my point of view, i can see that my initiation and roleplay could have been way better and more convincing, that being said i am sorry that i didn't provide that high quality of roleplay @Delta. However, you did run after you knocked me over the head which clearly shows you expected a gunfight, so knocking me out was the reason you died. I don't believe Joseph done any wrong here, he simply observed from his point of view and acted when necessary. 

 

[Kempi Anderson]

So to start off with this report I will be putting down timestamps when needed to make it easier to follow. The timestamps will be based off the video used in the evidence that being https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGDWvdv0I8c&feature=youtu.be 

1:20 Delta arrives at Agios fuel where Soap has landed his heli for unknown reasons. It's locked so you decide to get into the pilot seat and get out to talk to Soap 
1:30 Delta starts interacting with Soap and Soap claims he landed at Agios fuel cause he needed fuel for his helicopter and didn't have a map to find to the Airport
1:57 The officer with Delta asks to be taken out of the helicopter as he was locked in and Soap asks why he is in the helicopter and doesn't let him out.
2:17 Soap tells Delta "Okey sir, I'm going to need to ask you to place your hands in the air, uh I've got multiple armed rebels in the area if you call for backup I will need to knock you on the head" At the time Soap does not have a weapon out or is not showing any sign of an actual threat to Delta. I would say that if they acted upon this even it would be very low quality roleplay and straight out be RDM as they failed to properly threaten Delta in any way. However that being said Soap nor Joseph never acted upon this. 
2:26 Delta responds with "aight cool joke can you unlock the car" playing it off as if it was a joke because Soap never shows a weapon or anything that would actually be a threat. 
2:30 Soap says "only warning" Now @unrhsthshaknown I will remind you that if you had acted upon this it would still be classed as low quality as you've barely had any roleplay leading up to the situation except the "initiation" and telling him it's his only warning
2:32 Delta responds with saying "alright you wanna unlock the car" at this point Soap also pulls out a pistol to indicate that his threats were real. It's unknown whether he would've straight up knocked you out or continue the roleplay with the firearm out showing that what he said was serious.
2:35 Delta knocks Soap out after he's pulled his pistol out and starts running away. @Delta you claim that he should've said something along the lines of "how about now" after pulling his pistol out to show that he is serious but I do not think you gave him enough time to do something like that as he only has about 2 seconds between pulling the firearm and being knocked out. Soap did take some time to talk earlier and he might've been nervous and thinking about what to say which would've taken some time that he did not get.  To clarify Delta did not abuse unholstering his weapon to knock Soap out faster as the police can knock people out without actually having a weapon out due to their training. After Delta knock Soap out he runs away whilst pulling his weapon out to get behind cover.
2:44 Delta gets shot by Joseph for knocking out his friend Soap whilst he was trying to rob Delta. I do not feel as this is RDM as Delta was currently being threatened and decided to take action into his own hand by knocking down Soap as he pulled his pistol out after receiving threats that Soap did have allies that would assist him. 

My conclusion to the situation would be that whilst Soap and Joseph could've provided better roleplay the situation started as Delta knocked Soap out. Due to how the situation played out I can not make a decision whether it would've been low quality roleplay or not as Delta started the situation and not the aggressors Soap and Joseph. Overall I think the situation was not ideal from the start and all parties could've done better to improve the roleplay but in a robbery situation one might go for the more defensive options which is understandable. In the future I'd recommend to always try resolve sitatutions no matter what has happened before. If you do try and resolve it and aren't happy with what happens you can still put up a report. 
In the future I would recommend you actually issue a threat with your words and issue better roleplay for a robbery especially when you have illegally landed in a town as it is very sketchy. Delta I would remind you that just because someone pulls a gun on you doesn't mean your only option is to fight you could've lead the roleplay by talking rather then knocking them out. As I said though in my opinion whilst some stuff might've been a little bit borderline no rules were broken in this situation. 

Report Declined 

 

[Kempi Anderson]

Thank you for your report, Unfortunately, it has been declined

The staff member will advise shortly why on this occasion they have declined to take action against the reported player.

Please do not let this put you off making further reports in the future, We rely on our player base to help keep our community clean.