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The Police and hostage situations

From the majority of situations I have scene/been involved in particularly the big bank officers have stood back and allowed negotiations to take place with the people inside getting free passage.

As has been reiterated multiple times officers will consider the risk to all members of the public not just the hostage, a pursuit is very likely to have an equal if not greater risk to the public then the risk to the hostage and officers if they attempt a breach in certain situations for example two individuals separated with knives and a single hostage. 

Firearms is also a tactical unit and will engage in RP involving tactics, this may be an armed standoff as occurred in this situation with the hope that the individual will see reason but people can't be shocked when a unit meant to employ tactics employs tactics, it would be like getting angry that DSU had deployed a dog.

The 'win mentality' phrase gets thrown a lot at police and mostly comes from when criminals don't get what they want in a situation be ready to RP a loss like standing down to multiple armed officers.

 
Zulufighter said:
Firearms is also a tactical unit and will engage in RP involving tactics, this may be an armed standoff as occurred in this situation with the hope that the individual will see reason but people can't be shocked when a unit meant to employ tactics employs tactics, it would be like getting angry that DSU had deployed a dog.
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I agree it is okay to employ tactics. It is not okay however, to employ tactics that put the hostage's life at further risk. That is what I have an issue with.

 
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If you have an issue with police conduct, please approach Police Command who will deal with it. 

I don't see how forum posts like this solve any issues, and often they are written when the opposing party has 'lost'

 
Every single situation I have been in, big bank, life invader, even the small fleeca banks back in the day. Its the same old "We HaVE a HOsTagE, We wAnT No NpAs, nO SpIKeTriPs, NoOnE ChASe Us"

To add to that, the amount of times we've allowed the boring criminals with the same hostage script flee with a car chase is more than us breaching.

I am a firearms officer, to see firearms as a whole are forcing gunfights and hoping for a gunfight is downright wrong. Everyone knows me for trying to remove pistols from CID, Response and RPU but won't happen due to criminals running around like a militia. I prefer realism over arcade games and shooting every single crim feels like Call of Duty which isn't something I am here for.

A lot of the people who play FiveM nowadays, never seen the old days of the HM Treasury robbery on ArmA, a lot of people introduced a lot of good roleplay...yes some gangs had a hostage and wanted this and that but others much like Triads did when they were first created as creating extensive and formal documents, played dress up and did a roleplay Humane Labs and it was great fun, they got away with it most of the time.

Please just don't come onto these forums complaining about police not valuing hostages or breaching constantly and that you think it's poor roleplay, look at yourself in the mirror and see what you're roleplay is for others from an outside perspective and try to be better and I'm sure you'll get a lot of police playing ball with you.

Won't reply further, don't quote me xx

 
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Easiest thing to do is put the hostages life above all. Every action taken should be preservation of said life and if it goes wrong thats on the officer or officers either in charge and/or who fired the shot. 

That said there are more than a few ways to tackle a robbery from a criminal side. It does not need to be a "hostage taking" meta.

The problem comes when someone tries to do it a little different and the police officer fails to see that that's what the criminal is trying to do and fails to play along, instead just wanting the cuffs on them for their own arrest quota etc. They naturally then fall back to the old grab a hostage method because its easier than an elaborate con or a Heat (the movie for you young uns) style shoot out because guns are not easily obtained nor easily replaced.

A little imagination from players on both sides, some common sense, and a big fat dose of roleplay can all fix that tho. 

Unfortunately a lot of people lack the imagination to truly let the rp flourish and push for a resolution, often the "quick win" sadly. 

 
Sxdler01 said:
I understand there may be rare occasions where a breach is necessary
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@VeikkQ

With the Iranian Embassy siege that you linked, the police negotiators ensured the safe release of five hostages and it was only breached when "they killed a hostage and threw his body out of the embassy". If the hostage takers are to kill a hostage, then obviously it is more than okay to breach as the other hostage's lives are at a highly elevated risk. I am not disputing that.

 
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Just going to put my thing in here and this is going from the mini argument in OOC and answer to it.

Situation on about is this absolute class act by @adaco , @Jordanand Co

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In this situation they gad hostages yes. But they demanded that "Police will not follow and npas must land otherwise we will shoot other people as fleeing" Now this was seen as 3 hostages lives in a confined space is easier to save then them potentially shooting people ina pillbox drive by or bean machine etc. So of course police raided to protect the hostage. as police where not going to ignore criminals making off with money and guns that in the end they didnt have they lied.

Its a case of think sensible. think about what you say. And police may have no reason to breach

 
@Chilli

I totally agree with you in that situation, as it is a difficult one for Police due to the totally unreasonable demands and threats to the public. It is similar to the embassy one, everyone keeps mentioning scenarios where it can be seen as acceptable to breach or clearly acceptable. Once again I am not disputing that, it is the times when there is absolutely no reason for a breach and the hostage's lives are put at a higher risk for no reason by doing so.

Not meaning to argue with anyone, it is just a discussion/debate on a topic that is very split but it can come across that way when both sides are trying to make the other see their points.

 
Sxdler01 said:
@Chilli

I totally agree with you in that situation, as it is a difficult one for Police due to the totally unreasonable demands and threats to the public. It is similar to the embassy one, everyone keeps mentioning scenarios where it can be seen as acceptable to breach or clearly acceptable. Once again I am not disputing that, it is the times when there is absolutely no reason for a breach and the hostage's lives are put at a higher risk for no reason by doing so.

Not meaning to argue with anyone, it is just a discussion/debate on a topic that is very split but it can come across that way when both sides are trying to make the other see their points.
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Yhe i agree the situations that are shown are reasonable breachs the issue is we are not complaining about these situations we are complaining about the situations where the hostage isn't in real immediate threat like the embassy one and the requests made are not unreasonable like the last clip shown by chilli

because most of the times the max people ask for is free passage for some small distance, no spikes and no Npas but they wont ask for police not to follow completly since it doesnt make sense.

 
VeikkQ said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Embassy_siege

"After Lavasani's body had been recovered, Sir David McNee, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, contacted the Home Secretary to request approval to hand control of the operation over to the British Army, under the provisions of Military Aid to the Civil Powe"

Here firearms unit shoots when hostage life is in immediate danger. https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxIiJv5DSKEF2yHCO2IuktIf5ugtGhTaI2
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That issue was resolved by the SAS, not the police. Military Assistance to the Civil Authorities - its called a MACA. 

When they breach youre not going home, youre off to collect your 21 virgins from Allah. That situation was turned over because there was no way they could reasonably effect a timely release of the hostages. Please dont use that as an example of a scenario for RP, it will literally blow up half the server.  

the biggest issue i see here from reading these posts is that hostage situations are intensely psychological and drawn out affairs and some of the people who get involved in them just get very bored very quickly and want to get the RP "over" with and ended. This happens on all sides. The cops just want to move on to the next call and the criminal element just want to get away with their loot. 

If hostage taking is going to be a viable tool in the tool kit then a lot of you need to respect the psychology and the other sides efforts in how you approach it. If you get bored and decide to just breach then be prepared for the salt explosion that comes with it but if you let the criminals have their way for a bit then you might find you get some interesting RP. 

Just give the other side a chance to let the story develop a little bit basically as all youre doing is discouraging people from committing these crimes and thus providing you with the chance to actually be more like real life police. The quicker you shut down a situation the shittier it is for other people and the next time you go to one you will probably find the other side is less likely to be tolerant with you. 

 
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It's simple, the police should not shoot unless shot at in any hostage situation, They should negotiate and let the criminal flee, leaving the hostage in the hands of a police unit and the remaining officers should chase the criminal on a fair and equal playing field. If the police are outnumbered, the hostage should take priority over a chase.

 
MrRobeplay said:
I agree, but still the police sign up to serve and protect so the hostage should be the priority.
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The police are their to protect members of the public, yes they need to protect the hostage however this is not the only person thing they can consider.

William Antrim said:
The thing is, he's right though. The ROE states exactly this. 
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Police can use for to prevent an immediate threat to life by shooting to stop the subject from carrying out their intended or threatened course of action. Are you looking at British Army ROE?

 
Hate to say this and burst everyone bubble but its a game. Referencing IRL stuff is irrelevant due to the simple fact Its a game and as such we are restricted compared to IRL [I.e. police cannot do hours sieges which could be done IRL / People have to RP before shooting / You can kill someone and their bodies disappear] In addition to this something people keep forgetting when mentioning "Police have to value hostage lives" is the fact theirs no rule against it, Police are people and funny enough people can fuck up OR people may want to RP their police character as a shit cop (cough cough bowen) and The idea of breaching is to end a situation that needs ending,  This can be a result of a wide range of circumstance's but again as i mentioned before its a game and every situation is unique: Different command, Different circumstances, Different Training, etc.

Am not going to say all breaches are perfect / appropriate at times but If you(The hostage) are upset regarding it there's a court system in place where for whatever reason a hostage could sue stating police put them in unreasonable amount of danger without reason (Just an RP solution) OR better yet contact police command regarding it. 

For me personally (And feel free to disagree) this is police solving the problem that every situation involves hostages and because of this police has developed around this to deal with it (Anyone who patrolled with me know that when their was a life invader i used to say it going to be a hostage situation and demands are safe passage and no spike strips and funny enough the majority of the time i would be right to the point where i just stopped responding to them) Maybe try an rp robbery it might work depending on the officer(s) who responds.

Long story short, Police and hostages is not as "Simple" as what people think / People really need to stop referencing IRL examples for the specific reason being its irrelevant due to this being a game not IRL / if you got a complaint use the courts or contact police command and high chance this is a result after every situation now involves a hostage (Which is because a completely different problem)

 
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