Darter Meeting Results

[ReiSSs]

With all due respect, saying 'like everyone else has to' would be a valid argument if.....

Police could (like everyone else)

> Backpack weapons in a gunfight to fake 'not involved', move strategic positions, or avoid being shot.
> Switch clothes in a gunfight to fake 'not involved', move strategic positions, or avoid being shot.
> Switch cars in a gun fight to fake 'not involved', move strategic positions, or avoid being shot.
> Routinely use unarmed hobos to scout / distract / harass the enemy in a gun fight
> Circle / harass / scout the enemy in unmarked cars.
> Ally up with other gangs
> Use low cost stealth gear
> Permanently drive unmarked cars to confuse and cast doubt as to who's involved and who's not.
> Strategically set up 'prior' to a bank heist
> Consistently use more powerful weaponry / scopes than the enemy

These are all things done as standard practice by rebels to gain the advantage over police. 

The darter helped knock this down from a very large advantage to just a large advantage. 

well there was a time when i was at the top left of the map fleeing from police and then got a plane out flew to UNMC lands and because the darter was locked onto me they was able to find me even tho the darter travels at like max 100 p how i was flying at least 500 landed at unmc airbase and i was getting messages saying i can see you etc, the lock on affect was stupid. Even if i can not be visibly seen because the darter has locked onto me i cannot escape and it doesn't matter what i do its impossible. Even in houses it locks and pretty much shows the EXACT position of the person in pursuit that combined with it being on  your screen like the map or radar mechanic on arma 3 makes it ridiculously overpowered. 

So i bring my point across longbeard, how many I-99 patrols have been recorded in npas for the last month or so just so we can take this into consideration that I-99 has lost its use because of darters

 

[Nalurah]

Nalurah, I have to point out the utter ... for a lack of a better word ... SILLY way this meeting was run can be summed up with this 

https://gyazo.com/214c7d7c159a0c03390bcd346f77cbf5

UNMC LT+ gets to vote while only police ACC/DCC/CC, then even after that you have overwhelming rebel "leader" presence.

Then you decide to put this up for a vote ... not to mention 2 votes, since the online pool was more of who will spread the link fastest race and the PM one was from the "community representing ratio of people" or something like that.

After the brilliantly executed voting, 

"We have come to the conclusion that removing darters would be too drastic. So at the midnight restart some changes will be made to the darters."

Nothing too drastic, lets just turn darter into a radioshack quadcopter because rebels and UNMC need love, Police should be happy they still have darters.

Nicely done

Tip:

a compromise or nothing  too drastic would be removing the thermals or AI, not both

You assume based on your quote of the numbers present that all police voted for option 1 and all rebels voted for option 2, 3 or 4. As I stated at the end of the meeting this wasn't true. Some police voted for different options and some rebels voted for 1. The UNMC who have darters also showed a reasonably varied number. It could have swayed in any direction.

As for the strawpoll. That was just something spread around because a management member wanted to see what would happen and had no effect in the decision making. The decision was made by a group of unbiased people with the help of management.

It is unfortunate therefor that you decide to attack the way I do my job without all the facts. It's not an easy job after all. In future if people wish to question decision made kindly request a conversation in teamspeak in which the pros and cons of the decision made can be discussed. 

This will be my last response to this thread as to be honest some of the reactions disappoint me. 

 

[GHOSTK1LL3R]

Great to see these changes be put in place. I completely understand why people where mad, if I was to take something super OP like that away from my hands I'd be bloody mad I let it happen. People don't moan about something being OP for no reason. I'm glad UNMC where given the chance to use it as they got to understand how stupidly OP the darter was. Getting spotted by something you could never see, was always something which was dumb.

 

[killersky]

Cheapest thermal uniform is 9.5k,helmet is 5k,thats 14.5k just to make yourself invisible for thermals. Thats fucking cheap. Removing thermals was a bad move. If rebels are complaining that they doesn´t need to earn money anymore and they want new stuff to spend $ added ,why they won´t be able to pay just 14.5k for clothing? Doesn´t makes any sense at all.

It's not invite or bud, for example on white hot a thermal suit will be grey instead of black. The moment someone with a suit starts moving then he is almost as easy to see when without suit.

Great to see these changes be put in place. I completely understand why people where mad, if I was to take something super OP like that away from my hands I'd be bloody mad I let it happen. People don't moan about something being OP for no reason. I'm glad UNMC where given the chance to use it as they got to understand how stupidly OP the darter was. Getting spotted by something you could never see, was always something which was dumb.

Totally agree with ghost here, darters are OP to a extend where some exile servers even removed them.

 

[Sassy]

You assume based on your quote of the numbers present that all police voted for option 1 and all rebels voted for option 2, 3 or 4. As I stated at the end of the meeting this wasn't true. Some police voted for different options and some rebels voted for 1. The UNMC who have darters also showed a reasonably varied number. It could have swayed in any direction.

As for the strawpoll. That was just something spread around because a management member wanted to see what would happen and had no effect in the decision making. The decision was made by a group of unbiased people with the help of management.

It is unfortunate therefor that you decide to attack the way I do my job without all the facts. It's not an easy job after all. In future if people wish to question decision made kindly request a conversation in teamspeak in which the pros and cons of the decision made can be discussed. 

This will be my last response to this thread as to be honest some of the reactions disappoint me. 

We are angry at the way this was conducted because for some strange reason DNPAS and CNPAS Were not aloud to go to his meeting but PC Kyano was ? We are angry at the fact its literally all factions vs police we are the minority on this server. We are angry at the fact darters have been on this server for longer than I can remember and after 1 meeting with no evidence to back up any of their arguments the only thing that makes them useful is removed. 

 

[Edgar Ville]

ITT, people losing their shit over perceived changes from a straw poll that has no bearing on the conversation other than showing us which side has the most people losing their shit.

The solution hasn’t been decided upon and it sure as hell won’t be decided in a public vote.

So to everyone here getting personal and spelling doom and the end of the world; sit down, you look silly.

 

[Alfred]

A reminder for all,

Your comments are to remain on topic and constructive. 

 

[Davelantor]

use hellcats like everyone else has to, lets check NPAS time sheets for the past month or more and tell me how many india 99 patrols there has been and i can safely say its probably less then 

Come on Finnish that sentence big boy, you obviously seem to know something ... wait no you dont know anything, like all the rebels that thought there are between 10 to 20 darters in the air. or like the staff member that thought I-99 is a better RP tool then a darter.

The number you were looking for is 22 for December.

Since you havent shown any sign of knowledge, let me remind you, nobody likes I-99 patrols so they are often done during high time when they are most usefull
 

 

[Sassy]

What surprises me as well is how fast that mission file was ready. We have been asking for certain updates for months but as soon as the idea of the darter being nerfed was even considered the mission file was already ready to go that evening. 

 

[Tuna]

Police, the fact you are all so upset about this shows how clearly reliant you were on Darters.. if you only had two at a time it isn't that hard to replace it with a thermal helicopter. Rebels and UNMC survive without thermals allll the time, the only people who seem to be reliant on them in every gunfight is police - guess that has absolutely nothing to do with darters though! You make it seem as though we're taking away your SUVs and making you walk everywhere, it's just a darter.

"Everyone has a bloody stealth suit" yes, because every police member and their nan has a darter up so of course we are going to counter it. And I find this hilarious, because in all of the darter arguments police would state "get a thermal suit to counter it" and now all you do is bitch and complain at your own damn suggestion?

If I remember counting correctly - there were still move police members than UNMC members so I don't even see how that is a valid argument. "POLICE ARE SO OUTNUMBERED WAHHHHHHH" Did you see how close that vote was? One more vote on "change nothing" and look what would have happened. Something? Maybe. But you almost won so don't cry at a democratic vote.
Sorry, it was completely a biased unfair system sorry, stupid vote not democratic!!!!

"UNMC are against us" we had darters of our own and look which side we took. You think we thought "hmm yes lets sabotage ourselves just to annoy police"? Get good at using thermal helicopters just like EVERY other group on this island. You have more people to sacrifice for thermal helicopters than ANYONE else, yet you were the only people who had autonomous thermal cameras. "We've had darters for years and it hasn't been a problem" it really has though, and that's why it has been changed because for months rebels have been complaining. I guess we're complaining at a non-existent problem. Sorry guys, we're all thick idiots with no facts.
Except the 3 darters you shoot down over a bank, and the many others you never see.

@Sassy that mission file had literally 3 lines of code changed; it's that simple to remove these things. Making new scripts, making buildings, anything like that takes longer than editing a simple line of code that is already in the game. I'm sure it's probably that all the devs are against police, like everyone else on this server, and no one wants you to have any fun whatsoever.

 

[Sassy]

Police, the fact you are all so upset about this shows how clearly reliant you were on Darters.. if you only had two at a time it isn't that hard to replace it with a thermal helicopter. Rebels and UNMC survive without thermals allll the time, the only people who seem to be reliant on them in every gunfight is police - guess that has absolutely nothing to do with darters though! You make it seem as though we're taking away your SUVs and making you walk everywhere, it's just a darter.

"Everyone has a bloody stealth suit" yes, because every police member and their nan has a darter up so of course we are going to counter it. And I find this hilarious, because in all of the darter arguments police would state "get a thermal suit to counter it" and now all you do is bitch and complain at your own damn suggestion?

If I remember counting correctly - there were still move police members than UNMC members so I don't even see how that is a valid argument. "POLICE ARE SO OUTNUMBERED WAHHHHHHH" Did you see how close that vote was? One more vote on "change nothing" and look what would have happened. Something? Maybe. But you almost won so don't cry at a democratic vote.
Sorry, it was completely a biased unfair system sorry, stupid vote not democratic!!!!

"UNMC are against us" we had darters of our own and look which side we took. You think we thought "hmm yes lets sabotage ourselves just to annoy police"? Get good at using thermal helicopters just like EVERY other group on this island. You have more people to sacrifice for thermal helicopters than ANYONE else, yet you were the only people who had autonomous thermal cameras. "We've had darters for years and it hasn't been a problem" it really has though, and that's why it has been changed because for months rebels have been complaining. I guess we're complaining at a non-existent problem. Sorry guys, we're all thick idiots with no facts.
Except the 3 darters you shoot down over a bank, and the many others you never see.

@Sassy that mission file had literally 3 lines of code changed; it's that simple to remove these things. Making new scripts, making buildings, anything like that takes longer than editing a simple line of code that is already in the game. I'm sure it's probably that all the devs are against police, like everyone else on this server, and no one wants you to have any fun whatsoever.

So you think 30 rebels with mk1's vs 10 cops with mk20's is fair. There was 13 cops vs 19 rebels and UNMC at that meeting once again you think thats fair ? Your trying to say UNMC isnt against us especially when at the end of the meeting the Developer who is a UNMC member said that police are unable to have a debate like grown ups????

 

[Tuna]

So you think 30 rebels with mk1's vs 10 cops with mk20's is fair. There was 13 cops vs 19 rebels and UNMC at that meeting once again you think thats fair ? Your trying to say UNMC isnt against us especially when at the end of the meeting the Developer who is a UNMC member said that police are unable to have a debate like grown ups????

Lots of word about this 30-man bank op.. speaking to one of the groups apparently involved they wondered why 20 of these people didn't have GPSs because they sure couldn't see them in the fight.
Police have numbers, that has been said for years that numbers is an advantage for the police. Now police complain they don't have enough people? It's amazing how quickly you turn on your own arguments when things don't go your way.
Mk-1 price has been increased again so that's an issue of the past not the present.
And yes, 13v19 I think is fair considering how you claim the "police is so outnumbered" but yet in proportion to the numbers of you on the server you had far greater representation than any other other group on the island. You had only 6 less people than ALL REBELS AND UNMC who you claim outnumber you.. That seems fair to me? What are you expecting, exactly equal numbers with rebels? That wouldn't be a fair representation of the server would it.

The fact that cops have taken to the forums to rage about a change which has been an issue for months, shows that you can't have a debate like grown ups.

 

[killersky]

So you think 30 rebels with mk1's vs 10 cops with mk20's is fair. There was 13 cops vs 19 rebels and UNMC at that meeting once again you think thats fair ? Your trying to say UNMC isnt against us especially when at the end of the meeting the Developer who is a UNMC member said that police are unable to have a debate like grown ups????

maybe he is right looking at the conversations here.

Come on Finnish that sentence big boy, you obviously seem to know something ... wait no you dont know anything, like all the rebels that thought there are between 10 to 20 darters in the air. or like the staff member that thought I-99 is a better RP tool then a darter.

The number you were looking for is 22 for December.

Since you havent shown any sign of knowledge, let me remind you, nobody likes I-99 patrols so they are often done during high time when they are most usefull
 

lemme look back in my files... couple months ago when we had gunfight in kav.

i was litterly tasked to shoot down darters, as the moment we shoot one down a ar member with a hunter next to him takes a new one off. on that day me alone shot down i darters....

now you tell me thats on the timesheet.

 

[NimmerN]

So you think 30 rebels with mk1's vs 10 cops with mk20's is fair. There was 13 cops vs 19 rebels and UNMC at that meeting once again you think thats fair ? Your trying to say UNMC isnt against us especially when at the end of the meeting the Developer who is a UNMC member said that police are unable to have a debate like grown ups????

To be honest with you sir, everytime OG does anything, we are like 7-8 people maybe 12 at max, and we still fight u guys even when we know you guys outnumber us, If we do a bank ur up suddenly alot more, but we never complain to you guys about how many you are, because ur a swarm when it comes to coming back, its not much we can do except for taking it away so we still can fight for it, but you got to agree, having the lock on, trackiing u down 15min after last shot was fired, still able to find you and start shooting since uve always had eyes, and we have not, it's kind of redicelous isnt it? And yes we use helis, we probably use the helis more then you do. I'm not saying this to make people mad or furious, but its god damn impossible to spot the darter when its so far up, thermals are on, and u have lock on. As it goes for the stealth uniform, if u want to increas the price of it, sure, do so, but people will start using more clothes that will go for roleplay purposes aswell, since u dont have thermals, and not everyone on the server will walk around with stealth and ghillies, because I god damn miss my awesome clothing.

 

[GHOSTK1LL3R]

Just something I want to note, this statement of '30 rebel banks'. Sometimes cops are not meant to win, if there is a 30-40 rebel bank and rebels still lose there is clearly something wrong with balance. Cops are meant to lose from time to time and if someone's willing to do a 30 rebel bank and only get a 500k cut for a hour of time then rebels deserve to win

 

[Davelantor]

You assume based on your quote of the numbers present that all police voted for option 1 and all rebels voted for option 2, 3 or 4. As I stated at the end of the meeting this wasn't true. Some police voted for different options and some rebels voted for 1. The UNMC who have darters also showed a reasonably varied number. It could have swayed in any direction.

As for the strawpoll. That was just something spread around because a management member wanted to see what would happen and had no effect in the decision making. The decision was made by a group of unbiased people with the help of management.

It is unfortunate therefor that you decide to attack the way I do my job without all the facts. It's not an easy job after all. In future if people wish to question decision made kindly request a conversation in teamspeak in which the pros and cons of the decision made can be discussed. 

This will be my last response to this thread as to be honest some of the reactions disappoint me. 

Dont give me that cute story please. Fine dont respond, but i iwll

Even you your self mentioned you were surprised by some of the rebels votes, this only leads me to guess that you were also expecting votes to be mostly on the (rebels vote to remove/police vote to keep). That tells me you disregarded the number ratios compared to how much UNMC/rebels/police there are and went ahead with what you EXPECTED to be a vote with a obvious outcome of removing or lobotomizing darters.

So you dont tell me what I assumed.

No ... I assume based on the bias, on UNMC side we had a spike point a lying dishonest general, that claimed EVEN GUESTS GET DARTERS as if darter usage was out of hands, he abused his whitelisting and took out a terminal, and obviously saw how many darters there were during his time in police, that fueled a lot of anger, while he left out the detail that he claims to had asked the patrol leader, meaning the "patrol leader" had to check if there is a darter out. Since it was as he mentioned was an AR patrol, the patrol was allowed a single darter. He later on mentioned how OP it was, mentioning that their soldiers were frequently backpacking the darter to take it with them. No the what police were doing but what UNMC was doing with darters.

The entire UNMC experience with un-checked darter experience had nothing to do with the Police. But that was pointed out non the less.

Secondly, as mentioned before It would be rather retarded to consider this vote was "representative of the community" when only Police command is able to join while UNMC LT+ can join along with every rebel leader + some others. When we consider the actual numbers was silly.

Not to mention, the entire argument was poorly managed around the "LETS MAKE IT EQUAL" with a disregard on basic organizational differences between UNMC / Rebels and POLICE.

I am not suprised that reactions disappointed you. I hope you took lessons out of this.

Your "compromise" or  non "Drastic" measure is making a darter a simple radioshack quadcopter. SO either bring them back or remove it entirely, because currently its just stupoid

 

[Simon-]

What happened to NPAS? 

They usually were the MVP when it came to gunfights. 

When we were in the police, 9 times out of 10 gunfights with NPAS in the air was usually me in a MH9 spotting the shit out of everything...

And why not balance it differently then... give rebels the option to buy a darter, you can buy a fully FLIRed up drone with all the automation software for under £10k so what’s the issue with giving it to rebels when we have access to things like marksman rifles and armed offroads and things that would be much harder to get your hands on...

 

[Davelantor]

Some of you seem rather set in the stance that UNMC would gain by having the darters removed/nerfed etc but funny enough we have this small device called a "Darter" in our air shop as well which is limited to a few people so in fact overall it would cause more loss than anything but having had it for some time it really does become clear quite quickly how powerful it really is for just one person hence why most will be against it regardless of having it or not. Also your point about UNMC Lt+ I can somewhat see where your coming from but as far as I am aware not all UNMC command were there (myself for sure not being there) and at the moment if the last ACC slot was filled we would only have 3 more people overall and in a case like that it may be wiser to try and have a balance of the factions leaders present to avoid further calling out like so. If you have an issue with how the community meeting's leader decides to obtain some information on how the community wants changes through like a poll to gather the opinions of a majority then I suggest instead of criticizing you actually do as per the OP (original poster) said and actually suggest something constructive not just frankly whinge about it as nothing will come of that. Also with your "Tip" it is rather redundant as if they just removed the thermals people would still be whinging over it all the same as now especially if you read the current posts quite recently and just removing the ai? Errr... having a drone that can track someone through absolutely anything is just absurd along with the waypointing which was already quite broken to begin the following part is not a big deal if your with someone just learn to self-fly it as you will find you can likely end up getting it somewhere faster or better yet use NPAS when its too far as I know from the past one of the reasons people didn't like going up in I-99 was that once up no one called for you half the time so it made it pointless though for a while a bit further back it was from because people normally asked for I-99 hell we sometimes were forced to pick and choose between calls and pick out who needed us more which is something which makes a pilots life that just bit more interesting. (This post is meant towards those with a post alike to the quoted one above not targeting individually)

TLDR: Make suggestions not throw about pointless subjects with no foundation to stand on like "Oo next is our rubbers to be gone" and when criticizing actually be constructive with it and/or have suggestions to specific things that could be improved like with the leadership ratio should try to be kept as equal as possible more focus between having the faction leadership involved at about the same level of numbers as doing so with gangs is harder since they are all not together and have different views/opinions more unlike to how the factions have a more focused view/opinon.

Also finally some of you seem to be missing something quite major (Police anyway and us as UNMC) we have a flying camera to spot people and things with you just need to use your eyes like you do on the ground unless you have become so lazy and reliant on a bloody thermal imaging you cannot be bothered to even look about anymore. Also, there will be less need for every Tom, Dick and Harry to have to buy a thermal suit now to avoid Police/UNMC darters but I do still agree the thermal suits should be price increased hell personally think they should be removed as well with the darter thermals.

Lets go over the list of thing that have thermals Taru, Hellcat, Darter, Strider, Blackfish

UNMC can use all of them, land them, RP next to them
Police cant use Taru and Blackfish, its not in their operational description
Police can only land the hellcat to NPAS and Kavala PD
Police dont have Striders.
Police cant backpack Darters and take them to field to deploy later on
Police are restricted in their use, UNMC seem to be able to put as much as they like based on rank. gg

"Funny" indeed, specially since Police are government funded and UNMC are a rebel faction.

I-99 not fun was called out most after "someone" mentioned they are a great RP tool, which was a shocker to anyone who knew what they were talking about.

As for your silly TLDR: never mentioned rubbers, I am suggesting to bring back the AI or the thermals, but not take out both. But seems you were illiterate while reading that part of my comment you quoted.

as for the last part of your comment Best of luck removing something from rebels or UNMC

"Everyone has a bloody stealth suit" yes, because every police member and their nan has a darter up 

If I remember counting correctly - there were still move police members than UNMC members so I don't even see how that is a valid argument. "POLICE ARE SO OUTNUMBERED WAHHHHHHH"

"UNMC are against us" we had darters of our own and look which side we took. You think we thought "hmm yes lets sabotage ourselves just to annoy police"? 

Except the 3 darters you shoot down over a bank, and the many others you never see.

Hi Tuna, you are a clear example of how ignorant our community is
Even after a meeting about darters where it was pointed out police can have at most 3 darters out and often its between 0 and 2, you still talk nonsense about every police pulling up darters.

Nobody made that argument, but its nice to see that you know it, mean hopefully some other people know it aswell and see how utterly stupid that vote was.

Please refer to my reply to Valen about UNMC asset usage compared to Police

A constructive solution would have been to remind rebels that they can shoot darters and not every police officer can or is allowed to pull them (you know the rules)
IF there was anything to be done to Darters, it should have been to restrict it to NPAS only, 1 or 2 out at a time (instead of 3) or at most remove the thermals or the AI, not both.

 

[Davelantor]

maybe he is right looking at the conversations here.

lemme look back in my files... couple months ago when we had gunfight in kav.

i was litterly tasked to shoot down darters, as the moment we shoot one down a ar member with a hunter next to him takes a new one off. on that day me alone shot down i darters....

now you tell me thats on the timesheet.

Here is the silly thing.

1. We can have a limited number of darters in the air. BUT when one is shot down, one can be pulled from Kavala again. So your argument  about the number is stupid.
2. Police dont backpack darters, so i would love to see how a hunter is able to give birth to a darter during a gunfight
3. You failed to give any number of darters you shot down or provide a "file". so do you have anything ? and is your keyboard numbers are not working ?

"on that day me alone shot down i darters...." ... what ?
 

@Tuna My apologies if I am seem too harsh. But its hard to look this situation and consider everything is nice and dandy. 

 

[Blake Fraser]

Taking away AI and thermals in my opinion was a bit overkill and basically renders the darter impractical to use, either one or the other not both. If we kept thermals and gave rebels more types of different stealth clothing so everyone doesn't look the same and considering how cheap the clothing is I feel that could be fair. Now, if darters are going to stay as they are maybe rebels should lose jets so they can't just find people to rob in seconds anywhere on the map using guest what? THERMALS! and also RADARS! or maybe NPAS should get access to jets or introduce the police to a royal air force special unit. Let's see how overpowered that would be shall we? Now you are probably thinking that NPAS have access to a blackfish that can travel fast, has thermals and a great radar but we only have one of each blackish at any time and only 20 people in the whole police force that can fly it from what I counted on the NPAS roster that have passed their blackfish test and yet again it needs two police officers to use as surveillance (same for a hellcat) whereas your jets only need one pilot which can also eject, get on scene and proceed to what they want to do very quickly. 

The amount of restrictions the police have on everything used in specialised units makes it hard to do anything as it is and this whole situation isn't helping. 

In summary as I've basically just gone on a rant^. Now that darters are nerf'd, something needs to change for rebels or something needs to changing in the police in general or just NPAS so that we aren't so weak anymore. All I want Police to have is a 1 maned vehicle that can be used for good surveillance which unfortunately the darter is just not cutting it and so that you don't need two players in aircraft with the pilot sitting there bored out their mind in auto hover crying they originally joined this server for role play.