The new aerial messaging system

[Hololock]

For those who are not aware the addition of this new feature allows white listed factions to warn off aircraft via a messaging system giving them instructions on what to do. This is a good new way for  these factions to ensure that helicopters don't cause un-needed disruption as well as fly about active situations.

The discussion is about the use of the system as initiation. This after all is the point of the system, to allow them to give instructions to helis would be a different way to put it as its use so far from what i have seen as heard is that its used to initiate. The issue is in essence the messages you get sent are just fancy "fuck off or die" messages they say something like "leave the area or be fired upon." This isn't a issue in itself however it causes a issue that maybe people would like to share opinions on. As the message is telling you to "fuck off or die" can we take this as a threat and act upon it (providing it doesn't conflict with the rules about baiting) for example. Trucks at weed pro orca is obviously either looking to maintain visual or assist the run and gets "fuck off or died" can we take this as a threat and take appropriate action or do we have to wait for them to shoot first ? The conflicting issue i am seeing here is that it is a threat and essentially it lets them initiate then pick or choose what they want to do with no repercussions and it doesn't seem entirely balanced.

Would like to hear what you think about it as my opinion as well as some i have spoke to is that it is a threat and that it should be treated as such however i would like to get staff opinions on this if possible.

Holo

 

[Edgar Ville]

I will be bringing this system up at the next rules discussion, we need to set a precedent before people overstep the non existent mark.

However, for now my gut feeling is that using a messaging system to shoot at a helicopter without a secondary form of request/threat/furry fuzzball launcher is just as bad as killing every police officer you can see because one of them told you to land or leave the airspace.

 

[blaze1981]

for unmc the system is only to be used inside our own air space for example asking helicopters to land at checkpoint for processing , if a helicopter ignores these messages i still expect my soldiers to follow the appropriate guide lines by first issuing warning shots both in front and behind the helicopter in question using tracer bullets 

also every message sent to a heli has to be written in such a way that the helicopter in question knows it is him who is being issued with the warning 

 

[Hololock]

I will be bringing this system up at the next rules discussion, we need to set a precedent before people overstep the non existent mark.

However, for now my gut feeling is that using a messaging system to shoot at a helicopter without a secondary form of request/threat/furry fuzzball launcher is just as bad as killing every police officer you can see because one of them told you to land or leave the airspace.

I agree it is bad, it has not been done yet however after being issued the warning then fired upon the only difference seems to be them shooting first rather than us when they issue the threat. Hopefully we can get some clarification out of the meeting to ensure it is used fairly and everyone is on the same page.

 

[Elliot Ash]

Personally, I feel like people are going to use this system to shoot people out of the pilot seat rather than attempting to disable the helicopter by shooting the tail rotor or engine.

 

[SolomoNn]

I mostly gave 2+ warnings for all helicopters and then shot , also , what would you want us to say other than "fuck off or die" or "land or die"?

You rebels already have the "power" of going as a hobo in a gunfight and pulling out a gun when unexpected or just driving around untill you find the perfect moment to shoot a cop in the back , making you able to shoot us when we send that message would be complete crap, that means we have to stay aware because we can get shot any time after sending the message?

 

[Andres Martinez]

I mostly gave 2+ warnings for all helicopters and then shot , also , what would you want us to say other than "fuck off or die" or "land or die"?

You rebels already have the "power" of going as a hobo in a gunfight and pulling out a gun when unexpected or just driving around untill you find the perfect moment to shoot a cop in the back , making you able to shoot us when we send that message would be complete crap, that means we have to stay aware because we can get shot any time after sending the message?

 No need to be hostile but unless you are in ghosthawk i see no point in sending land or die atc messages. And the lack of RP in the messages i have seen (cops only atm) is by saying things like those.  Some people will just not bother reading them so warning shots are still a must for me. 

 

[Peanutcat]

The system in my opinion is great as long as handled correctly. The way we would do it for example is by going along the lines of, 

"This is UNMC Air Traffic Control to the White and Black Orca over Salt Processor. You are in violation of border procedures and you are ordered to immediately land for inspection (if they border hopped). If you do not comply appropriate action will be taken."

After that standard methods of warning shots and so on would happen. I agree that some guidelines should be implemented to prevent the land or be shot messages I've seen. These messages should be written in a very specific way that makes it clear who they're aimed at, who is sending them, why they are sending them and what the recipient should do. While at the same time maintaining a good standard of RP.

Simply sending land or die should not be a proper initiation.

 

[SlimShady]

Simply sending land or die should not be a proper initiation.

Yes off course it isn't... just like saying it in-game face to face isn't proper initiation but the question is: are we allowed to land and shoot them after them posing a threat to our life?

 

[Rossss]

Yes off course it isn't... just like saying it in-game face to face isn't proper initiation but the question is: are we allowed to land and shoot them after them posing a threat to our life?

So we're assuming they've asked you to leave/land several times, you refuse and they say you will be shot down.

If we change that to someone saying to your face "put your hands up" and you refuse and they say "If you don't I will shoot you" and you whip out a gun and kill them instantly without saying anything, that's pretty poor in my opinion. Same goes for helis, If you don't say anything in return to the message, i'd say it's poor roleplay.

(Or to put it simpler, shooting people while they're robbing you without saying anything is comparable to landing and shooting them without saying anything)

 

[SlimShady]

So we're assuming they've asked you to leave/land several times, you refuse and they say you will be shot down.

If we change that to someone saying to your face "put your hands up" and you refuse and they say "If you don't I will shoot you" and you whip out a gun and kill them instantly without saying anything, that's pretty poor in my opinion. Same goes for helis, If you don't say anything in return to the message, i'd say it's poor roleplay.

(Or to put it simpler, shooting people while they're robbing you without saying anything is comparable to landing and shooting them without saying anything)

Its a dickmove but it isnt poor according to rules...

 

[Rossss]

Its a dickmove but it isnt poor according to rules...

Well, they aren't shooting at you and you haven't given any quality rp so i'd say you can't, but I guess its another grey area

 

[SlimShady]

Well, they aren't shooting at you and you haven't given any quality rp so i'd say you can't, but I guess its another grey area

Threat to your life = you can shoot them because they properly initiated so they can shoot you as well after 5 seconds...

 

[Rossss]

Threat to your life = you can shoot them because they properly initiated so they can shoot you as well after 5 seconds...

Does that mean you would be happy if you told the police to put their hands up or be killed while you had a weapon in your hands and got instantly shot ? 

 

[c4mmm]

Using the aerial text messages saying 'fly off or die' or 'if you land you will be killed' is bullshit, initiation over text message is honestly one of the worst forms of RP, at least put effort into the text. Once they land you can actually use your voice to initiate.

 

[Ozzycazy]

This is Air Traffic Control: Pilot flying over of [Nameofvillageortownhere] rotary/fixed wing aircraft, you are violating aviation laws must cease illegal festivities now. This is 1 of 2 Warning’s to leave the area or follow aviation laws. Failure to comply will result in being forced to land, Refusing to comply will result of being fired upon to disable rotary/fixed. If anyone wants a example.

 

[Nomad]

These are just my $0,02 but I think we should consider the ATC announcements not as initiation but as a warning to it. So basically a warning that we will initiate if you don't comply. I expect that warning shots are still needed and I hope they are.

Also since they are in RP if the message is literally "land or die" or something similar, contact the police command for the person or probably also a UNMC high up(if UNMC write it) since this is not accepted atleast in police and I'd expect not in the UNMC either.

A good message should look something like: "Police ATC to unknown white orca above Kavala. You are violating the aviation laws. Divert course from Kavala airspace or further action will be taken. This is the first of 2 warnings."

 

[SlimShady]

These are just my $0,02 but I think we should consider the ATC announcements not as initiation but as a warning to it. So basically a warning that we will initiate if you don't comply. I expect that warning shots are still needed and I hope they are.

Also since they are in RP if the message is literally "land or die" or something similar, contact the police command for the person or probably also a UNMC high up(if UNMC write it) since this is not accepted atleast in police and I'd expect not in the UNMC either.

A good message should look something like: "Police ATC to unknown white orca above Kavala. You are violating the aviation laws. Divert course firm Kavala airspace or further action will be taken."

If you tell them that action will be taken then it counts as initiation... (or a grey area, which they should be cleared in the rules...)

 

[Nomad]

If you tell them that action will be taken then it counts as initiation... (or a grey area, which they should be cleared in the rules...)

But action taken doesn't necessarily mean that we will shoot? Although I agree it can be taken that way and that's the problem, it's subject to interpretation... We'll have to see what the admins say...