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The player count crisis.
- Thread starter WhoisDan
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Athira
Just some thoughts, sorry I can’t type this up a bit more formally, as i’m visiting family and away desktop (which is currently somewhere in tier 4 now RIP):
I’m posting these thoughts in the context of someone who has played, somewhat consistently with a few breaks, since mid 2015, having moved exclusively to FiveM since its inception at RPUK, and only ever played AL at ALUK/RPUK. I will likely say some things that many people will disagree with or perhaps be offended by, however, at this point, it is what it is. I consider myself a role play, and am never really interested in frequently gunfights. Many people such as myself who are here for RP left for FiveM, and I feel may share somewhat similar thoughts.
One of the biggest things pushing people such as myself away from the AL server, are frankly the people. In 2015, a time in which the server had far fewer features than it does now, I would almost always have a positive role play interaction when logging onto ALUK, and importantly, would look forward to playing again. The situations you would get into ranged from the small scale adventures around Kavala with random players you would bump into, to elaborate schemes over the course of a few sessions, such as the infiltration of the old UNMC, or a 3 hour long excursion around the map, being hunted by some demented fuckhead whose evil Satanic cult you had managed to escape from moments earlier. The people on the server saw the weapons that could be accessed as a part of Arma as tools to aid specific role play situations. Things like the HM treasury were a once in a blue event, a proper heist, something only accomplished with the most careful of planning and dastardly or plans, by the most hardened criminals.
Fast forward to today. These types of people are few and far between. The objective? To provide the most minimal of ‘role play’ possible, before being able to shoot or steal from another player. The only thing that seems to excite people involves the detriment of another player in some form, be that financial loss, or being shot. A large chunk of the current player base no longer hold on to the values that ALUK originally set out to cater for. Nowadays, these people dominate the discussion surrounding the AL server development, and can usually be identified as a part of what I like to call the ‘face palm brigade’, as you can largely find them facepalming most suggestions that challenge their preferred play style, and instead offering little input to the discussion, other than the occasional status update regarding how maligned and poorly treated they feel when their predominantly combat-oriented suggestions aren’t immediately showered with praise from the staff and/ or development teams. When you spend so much time and energy creating drama around the amount of time it takes to pull out an assault rifle upon upon exiting a vehicle, it really makes you question just how much these individuals value role play. Moreover, said players have, through their continued low standards of role play and persistent steering of development toward more combat oriented features, driven away many from the server, either to other communities, or to FiveM, where others like myself can find a semblance of the types of interactions that were present in the earlier days of RPUK. I feel we are now at a point where there is such a large percentage of the player base on the AL server of players that fall into this first category, that sensible attempts to bring things back to the way they were are being weighed down by the fact that their threats to stop playing are in effect holding the server hostage to much needed change. To be blunt, these demands are not entirely new, and unfortunately have only gained traction as more and more concessions have been made, something that should not have happened at such rapidity, and instead should have been nipped in the bud in the past, when such issues were more manageable, preventing the apparent hostage situation that the server now finds itself in.
In terms of features, I few a few comments to make, and then perhaps some more ‘wishful’ ideas later.
One of the things we must recognise is the pull of FiveM, in that there is so much more development wise that is technically possible on GTA than on ArmA. Despite this, I believe there are several lessons that can be taken from FiveM. Firstly, there is the ‘world building’. With FiveM, I have a character. This character has apirations, relationships with other characters, a realistic financial situations that influences their decisions, and a socio-political landscape within which they exist. In GTA, you can be almost however you want to be, and tell your own story. I feel like this has never been the case on ArmA, with the actions of players instead driven by conflict, be it factional, gang, or personal. This is not to say there isn’t conflict on GTA, rather, conflict occurs as and when it makes sense to occur, rather than as the primary means by which players intersect. This is due to 2 reasons. The first is as previously mentioned, that some players here for conflict, and the second, which I feel has fed into the first, is that an alternative hasn’t been encouraged enough. I feel as if more options should be out there for players, that don’t focus on combat, and instead encourage the player to follow a consistent set of actions that make sense for their character to follow, with long term rewards for doing so. Examples of this could include more options for businesses, manufacturing, even a financial/banking system? Things that encourage players to build up/develop a location.
Secondly, we have consequences. No one doing something non combat oriented is going to stick at it if they are constantly being robbed or attacked. I find on FiveM that this type of play style, of trying to screw over another player, really doesn’t happen all to often. If people are here for conflict, they really need to be restricted to keeping it between groups who are happy with that. Some bloke who is just trying to start a mining company will in no way benefit from conflict with an armed rebel cartel, who seek to only deepen their pockets ( pockets which are in my view for too large as is ). Instead, the player is discouraged from continuing with that type of role play.
It’s not surprising that conflict is so frequent when it is so easy to acquire a high powered rifle, at a low cost, often done so by people with so much money that they make the Greek economy look like the least broken financial institution of all time. Time and again these types of comments have been raised by concerned players, tired of endless conflict, and low and behold the facepalm bridge are there in typical fashion again, telling the player how they scan instead resolve this issue by purchasing an assault rifle and/or getting together with a group of players. It’s almost as if trying to resolve these types of issues by grouping people together and giving them weapons only leads to further conflict, without addressing root of the issue.
As a police officer on AL, I got so sick and tired of the constant gunfights that I left the server. It makes no sense having large armed cartels robbing local banks 7 times an hour, or the HM being hit twice a night. There is 0 fun in that, and it makes 0 sense in most cases from an RP perspective. I can’t say I fully blame these individuals however, as I’ve often heard the response that they are doing it because they are bored. I believe there is some truth in this, however, the blame is also partly on these groups for perpetuating a cycle of conflict that they know drives many away from playing, instead choosing the option of much quicker gratification by shooting people and robbing the place in question.
Now that I’ve had my rant, I should probably suggest some actions. I’ll start with the less-broad suggestions, and work my way up to the more wishful and broader in scope ones.
Edit: Lastly, ditch the whole ‘initiation ‘ thing. It produces incredibly inorganic RP, and instead take a stance more in line with the taken on the FiveM server. This isn’t to say don’t punish people for shooting with a lack of a reasonable RP reason to do so, something which I firmly believe must remain unacceptable. If anything, crack down on this harder.
That’s probably all i’ve got to say for now, and I hope you get the ides of what changed I’ve tried to communicate and the direction in which I think the server could be steered.
I’m posting these thoughts in the context of someone who has played, somewhat consistently with a few breaks, since mid 2015, having moved exclusively to FiveM since its inception at RPUK, and only ever played AL at ALUK/RPUK. I will likely say some things that many people will disagree with or perhaps be offended by, however, at this point, it is what it is. I consider myself a role play, and am never really interested in frequently gunfights. Many people such as myself who are here for RP left for FiveM, and I feel may share somewhat similar thoughts.
One of the biggest things pushing people such as myself away from the AL server, are frankly the people. In 2015, a time in which the server had far fewer features than it does now, I would almost always have a positive role play interaction when logging onto ALUK, and importantly, would look forward to playing again. The situations you would get into ranged from the small scale adventures around Kavala with random players you would bump into, to elaborate schemes over the course of a few sessions, such as the infiltration of the old UNMC, or a 3 hour long excursion around the map, being hunted by some demented fuckhead whose evil Satanic cult you had managed to escape from moments earlier. The people on the server saw the weapons that could be accessed as a part of Arma as tools to aid specific role play situations. Things like the HM treasury were a once in a blue event, a proper heist, something only accomplished with the most careful of planning and dastardly or plans, by the most hardened criminals.
Fast forward to today. These types of people are few and far between. The objective? To provide the most minimal of ‘role play’ possible, before being able to shoot or steal from another player. The only thing that seems to excite people involves the detriment of another player in some form, be that financial loss, or being shot. A large chunk of the current player base no longer hold on to the values that ALUK originally set out to cater for. Nowadays, these people dominate the discussion surrounding the AL server development, and can usually be identified as a part of what I like to call the ‘face palm brigade’, as you can largely find them facepalming most suggestions that challenge their preferred play style, and instead offering little input to the discussion, other than the occasional status update regarding how maligned and poorly treated they feel when their predominantly combat-oriented suggestions aren’t immediately showered with praise from the staff and/ or development teams. When you spend so much time and energy creating drama around the amount of time it takes to pull out an assault rifle upon upon exiting a vehicle, it really makes you question just how much these individuals value role play. Moreover, said players have, through their continued low standards of role play and persistent steering of development toward more combat oriented features, driven away many from the server, either to other communities, or to FiveM, where others like myself can find a semblance of the types of interactions that were present in the earlier days of RPUK. I feel we are now at a point where there is such a large percentage of the player base on the AL server of players that fall into this first category, that sensible attempts to bring things back to the way they were are being weighed down by the fact that their threats to stop playing are in effect holding the server hostage to much needed change. To be blunt, these demands are not entirely new, and unfortunately have only gained traction as more and more concessions have been made, something that should not have happened at such rapidity, and instead should have been nipped in the bud in the past, when such issues were more manageable, preventing the apparent hostage situation that the server now finds itself in.
In terms of features, I few a few comments to make, and then perhaps some more ‘wishful’ ideas later.
One of the things we must recognise is the pull of FiveM, in that there is so much more development wise that is technically possible on GTA than on ArmA. Despite this, I believe there are several lessons that can be taken from FiveM. Firstly, there is the ‘world building’. With FiveM, I have a character. This character has apirations, relationships with other characters, a realistic financial situations that influences their decisions, and a socio-political landscape within which they exist. In GTA, you can be almost however you want to be, and tell your own story. I feel like this has never been the case on ArmA, with the actions of players instead driven by conflict, be it factional, gang, or personal. This is not to say there isn’t conflict on GTA, rather, conflict occurs as and when it makes sense to occur, rather than as the primary means by which players intersect. This is due to 2 reasons. The first is as previously mentioned, that some players here for conflict, and the second, which I feel has fed into the first, is that an alternative hasn’t been encouraged enough. I feel as if more options should be out there for players, that don’t focus on combat, and instead encourage the player to follow a consistent set of actions that make sense for their character to follow, with long term rewards for doing so. Examples of this could include more options for businesses, manufacturing, even a financial/banking system? Things that encourage players to build up/develop a location.
Secondly, we have consequences. No one doing something non combat oriented is going to stick at it if they are constantly being robbed or attacked. I find on FiveM that this type of play style, of trying to screw over another player, really doesn’t happen all to often. If people are here for conflict, they really need to be restricted to keeping it between groups who are happy with that. Some bloke who is just trying to start a mining company will in no way benefit from conflict with an armed rebel cartel, who seek to only deepen their pockets ( pockets which are in my view for too large as is ). Instead, the player is discouraged from continuing with that type of role play.
It’s not surprising that conflict is so frequent when it is so easy to acquire a high powered rifle, at a low cost, often done so by people with so much money that they make the Greek economy look like the least broken financial institution of all time. Time and again these types of comments have been raised by concerned players, tired of endless conflict, and low and behold the facepalm bridge are there in typical fashion again, telling the player how they scan instead resolve this issue by purchasing an assault rifle and/or getting together with a group of players. It’s almost as if trying to resolve these types of issues by grouping people together and giving them weapons only leads to further conflict, without addressing root of the issue.
As a police officer on AL, I got so sick and tired of the constant gunfights that I left the server. It makes no sense having large armed cartels robbing local banks 7 times an hour, or the HM being hit twice a night. There is 0 fun in that, and it makes 0 sense in most cases from an RP perspective. I can’t say I fully blame these individuals however, as I’ve often heard the response that they are doing it because they are bored. I believe there is some truth in this, however, the blame is also partly on these groups for perpetuating a cycle of conflict that they know drives many away from playing, instead choosing the option of much quicker gratification by shooting people and robbing the place in question.
Now that I’ve had my rant, I should probably suggest some actions. I’ll start with the less-broad suggestions, and work my way up to the more wishful and broader in scope ones.
- Implement a more detail manufacturing system, tied to progression, with harder to produce goods being challenging to unlock, yet highly lucrative.
- Implement a dynamic economy, wherein the price of goods changes based on some artificial demand.
- Implement a system where certain player created groups can be ‘approved’ similar to FiveM, wherein these groups can request bespoke development, such as billboards, shops, decorated vehicles, custom business hub, offices etc, provided that they can show a track record of consistently having developed a character and story, and have met strict quality of RP conditions.
- Discourage the entirely lopsided harassment of players seeking conflict harassing those who do not, be it via robbery, hostage taking etc. Basically, do more to protect those who are trying to build up some sort of RP background that doesn’t revolve around conflict, such that similar minded folk will be more inclined to log in and interact with the more peaceful players, with those more conflict oriented encouraged to restrict themselves. I would hazard a guess that there are many avenues of RP that could flourish under these limited protections, that presently do not live long enough to really gain any traction.
- Choose how to handle a split player base. In my view, there are 3 ways to do this. The nuclear option is to pick a side, and cater heavily toward one side ( I like to think I’ve made clear which side I would pick ), essentially encouraging the other side to move onto other servers that cater more to their tastes. The second option as I’ve alluded to is to split the map. Move conflict and non conflict type activities to opposite ends of the map, minimising unwanted crossover between the two groups, optimising the relevant sides of the map for the types of activities they cater to. And most importantly, police/encourage the playerbase to respect this division. The third option, and the one I would personally be in favour of the most is to split the AL servers. Have an Altis server that caters more toward the combat oriented people, and have a second Malden map server for those looking for less conflict oriented role play (this is not to say that conflict can never happen on this second server, rattler, it is encouraged to be much less frequent and organic, rather than regular). Basically, you have 2 types of players on the server that do not kid well together, and my view if you should pick a side, or segregate the sides to either opposite ends of the Altis map, or different Arma servers.
- On the subject of the Malden map, I feel like Altis is just too large, and that one of the successes of the Los Santos map is that everything is closer together. On Altis, clustering things together more may help, or just moving to a smaller map such as Malden. Doing so however would not work if the ‘meta’ of the server remained the same, as then you would be running into conflict much more frequently, which would in my view be disastrous.
- Another idea would be to have the map more influenced by player actions, as this would help foster that over arching RP story to the island, and encourage people to be more consistent with what they do, something which is easier to enable when there is a good reason to do so.
- Get rid of the Poseidon cartel. My understanding was to supposed to be a Narco style drug cartel, acting in the shadows and being covert. Nowadays it has a border that would make Boris Johnson envious, and acts more aggressively than the UNMC, which to their credit, at least initially, acted very much so in line with the background of what they were supposed to be. My advice would be either to a) find some older and more experienced community members to form together an actual drug cartel, albeit much less militarised, or b) with a similar group of people, reform the UNMC. This time however, place ultra strict standards on who leads it and who can join, and encourage said group to act in the best interest of role play and more importantly to be consistent with their MO. The UNMC was initially successful when it was smaller and of a higher quality, and only started really acting up when less desirable individuals started to join, with poor command decisions being made. A group like this could be a breath of fresh air, but only if tightly managed. Moreover, in the event my previous suggestion were implemented, regarding splitting the combat and non combat activities to opposite ends of the island, I feel like this new group, be it a cartel, UNMC, or whoever, would need to be closer to the areas more populated by players than the edge of the map, like the UNMC was previously, as this led to few visitors, and more of a reason for members to go into the rest of the island, border and looking for trouble. I believe positioning such a group between the two opposing ends of the island could serve as a nice buffer between the two sides of the islands and interact with both sides.
- Lastly, I would require groups of more than 8 players to have to be verified in some fashion. Right now, it seems as if most groups have some very generic back story of ‘fuck the government’, insert something about drugs here, and instead act with any concrete motivations, which does little to promote logical actions or help develop any sort of world building. These groups could then be asked to provide a sensible back story, other then something about being a group of ex SAS who suddenly became drug lords and now go around with stupid names like ‘GTX2080’ or ‘Tesco meal deal’, I think you get the idea.
Edit: Lastly, ditch the whole ‘initiation ‘ thing. It produces incredibly inorganic RP, and instead take a stance more in line with the taken on the FiveM server. This isn’t to say don’t punish people for shooting with a lack of a reasonable RP reason to do so, something which I firmly believe must remain unacceptable. If anything, crack down on this harder.
That’s probably all i’ve got to say for now, and I hope you get the ides of what changed I’ve tried to communicate and the direction in which I think the server could be steered.
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- Location
- The Marmite Pit
The last thing I'll say on this... if it gets to the point where you're going to pull the plug on Altis, would you be willing to do a wipe of the server first and then letting it run for a few weeks/month to see how it does? I do agree that a wipe probably won't help and would drive long-standing players away if it was done now, but if the server is going to be closed anyway then I guess it won't really matter if it's wiped because either way they are going to lose years worth of stuff. At least if it's wiped and stays up for a little while we get to have one last chance at reviving it, even if it's a long shot.
EDIT: To be abundantly clear, I am suggesting this as a last resort when the decision to close the server has been made, not as something to happen immidiately now.
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Zaka Riya
Well-known member
A wipe without a full map rework never works as no one wants to lose their progress just to have to return to doing the same runs and go to the same old previous locations, what would keep people playing after a wipe would be a full on new fresh experience which would require new unique features and a lot of map work. Simply don’t see how a wipe would ever work in favor of the server, just keep making these changes that have been implemented recently and the server might regain attraction like it used to.
- Location
- The Marmite Pit
Hence why I'm suggesting it as an absolute last ditch attempt. It may attract new players who would otherwise be intimidated by how far behind they are by players who have been here for years. It still probably wouldn't work, I fully agree with that, but I just think that when it gets to the point where the decision has already been made to pull the plug then what's the harm in trying?
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GREENY
Well-known member
- Location
- liverpool
I understand where @Wilcois coming from in regards to saying enough is enough ive been there ive ran a server so be it an exile one but it is hard work you cant always please everyone.
How ever i have seen and witnessed the main players slowly going to play else where i ask and urge you to have a re think and if your dedicated to the community think to your selves the impact this is also having ie when looking at the player number seeing there isnt so many people on oh i just wont bother the more numbers we have the more i feel will want to be part of it again.
The Dev team since the last community meeting i feel have listend to what we want it hard to implement but they are doing it bit by bit and its all been fantastic stuff which am sure we all agree as a community so thanks DEV team.
On to life on the server i am constantly interacting with new players trying to get a foot in and make some money doing runs constantly being targeted by certain gangs i wont say which gangs as you now who you are i am saying leave them the fuck alone to make money and not scare them away, interact with them show them good RP ask them if they need help or protection, we all now who is new on the island the community knows each other by now.
I also know that someone will comment soon and say there is nothing to do thats why we do it id say thats bullshit there is plenty to do and more coming...
As a community i ask we all pull together before its too late, sorry if ive made a few spelling mistakes ive done this on my phone fat fingers small screen . cheers GREENY
How ever i have seen and witnessed the main players slowly going to play else where i ask and urge you to have a re think and if your dedicated to the community think to your selves the impact this is also having ie when looking at the player number seeing there isnt so many people on oh i just wont bother the more numbers we have the more i feel will want to be part of it again.
The Dev team since the last community meeting i feel have listend to what we want it hard to implement but they are doing it bit by bit and its all been fantastic stuff which am sure we all agree as a community so thanks DEV team.
On to life on the server i am constantly interacting with new players trying to get a foot in and make some money doing runs constantly being targeted by certain gangs i wont say which gangs as you now who you are i am saying leave them the fuck alone to make money and not scare them away, interact with them show them good RP ask them if they need help or protection, we all now who is new on the island the community knows each other by now.
I also know that someone will comment soon and say there is nothing to do thats why we do it id say thats bullshit there is plenty to do and more coming...
As a community i ask we all pull together before its too late, sorry if ive made a few spelling mistakes ive done this on my phone fat fingers small screen . cheers GREENY
Starry
Active member
I really like the idea of an in game mentor call button for the new players that don't understand how things work, its a personalised touch, allows new players to integrate into the community more seamlessly and make allies / friends, I think is a lot of effort these days to join a specific TS with all your friends when you have to be in a public room to play, most people have their own discord ect and tend to play there. so having mentors that are present on TS seems a bit moot.
I've also looked through the thread and seen some controversy over the "player voice / council thing" on paper I think its a good idea, but I also somewhat agree with Jay ray that there is so much bias among solid players that everything is who you know. so I feel like having it as maybe a "gang rep" per gang (not dependant on size) would be better, so even the smaller new gangs could nominate a rep to be part of the player council. instead of it being based on you get in if you're friends with others. - I think having new and old players here is important - while older players like myself and @WhoisDanhold on strongly to RP and the past greatness of the server I think its important to embrace the needs of newer players who may have other interests.
as someone who is a bot when it comes to combat but loves RP the idea of implementing warzones makes me eyeroll, a lot of our larger gangs currently rinse redzones (which I think is important for the economy) but there's literally a police unit that pretty much solely does zones, I feel like that may have more purpose if they can shut zones down - seems like more of a realistic "mission" in the same way NCS can shut weed locations down.
This brings me swiftly onto the market imbalance - NOBODY who isn't new will do illegal runs - gone are the days of a hemmet weed convoy. I think the prices of illegal items need to be hiked up and trees... well need to drop. 13000 for one tree is excessive no matter how you look at it. even as a christmas "easteregg" - before anyone says "nobody wants to do runs anymore" hear me out (i still do runs) - new players NEED to do runs to get money to make them stay - if the illegal runs were worth more then that would drive them to do them making more RP and gunfight situations for police and Poseidon - bringing a drug dealer back into kavala would bring more traffic to the city giving the appearance of a higher populated server.
I get the feeling people who have been here for longer just want more reason to fight - but I dont think that adding more redzone opportunity's is the answer to bringing people into the server as new players cant afford decent gear to fight. here youre unable to ziptie and rob peoples gear until you have advanced rebel - in other communities youre able to strip weapons if you have downed someone - and I kinda feel like thats a good feature.
Ultimately I feel like making this more friendly and "easier" for newer players is how to go, why would you grind 4 hours for something you can get in 10 mins elsewhere.
I think its important to remember that while its a "serious RP community" its also a video game that people play to unwind and have fun.
TLDR : make it easier for new players, balance market on illegal items, make mentors easier to contact.
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Sycorax
Well-known member
- Location
- UK
Disclamer............. Only read this if you give a fuck about your server and can or are friends with someone who can make changes on the server.
Get your character wiped or if this is to difficult or not possible just join the server and role play as a "New player" with a diffrent name. You have a starting money budget, no licences, no gear, no cars, and so on. Play for as long as you can or as many restarts as you have time for. Then type out some sort of conclusion as to how your time was. Send it to someone who can do something.
To fix a problem you must understand a problem. If the people who do have power and can change things joined the server for a couple of restarts the server might have some numbers and people browsing the serverlist might join. The police that dont want to play because there is nobody to police might join.
An idea for people for the 90% of people who cant change anything. Insted of robbing a player with New above them, try giving them and few hours to rember or 100K. Take them to action situation or let them in your police car to a gas station robbery. Just try not swinging you massive ARMA Elite player dick about for atleast untill the server has enough people on it for your super cock to be relevent.
Thanks for reading please give feedback in the form of Direct messages to @WhoisDanXD
Get your character wiped or if this is to difficult or not possible just join the server and role play as a "New player" with a diffrent name. You have a starting money budget, no licences, no gear, no cars, and so on. Play for as long as you can or as many restarts as you have time for. Then type out some sort of conclusion as to how your time was. Send it to someone who can do something.
To fix a problem you must understand a problem. If the people who do have power and can change things joined the server for a couple of restarts the server might have some numbers and people browsing the serverlist might join. The police that dont want to play because there is nobody to police might join.
An idea for people for the 90% of people who cant change anything. Insted of robbing a player with New above them, try giving them and few hours to rember or 100K. Take them to action situation or let them in your police car to a gas station robbery. Just try not swinging you massive ARMA Elite player dick about for atleast untill the server has enough people on it for your super cock to be relevent.
Thanks for reading please give feedback in the form of Direct messages to @WhoisDanXD
GREENY
Well-known member
- Location
- liverpool
all these ideas are great but it all comes down to commonsense rob new players target new players treat them like shit this just sets the standards that they may go on to carry out them selves or they may just get fed up and leave so if no one has the commonsense themselves what hope is there.....
- Location
- Kinitawowi
As others have mentioned, I think a part of the problem is the death of drug runs. Years ago the drug locations were static and well known. When someone needed money, they could go and do a quick weed run. But slowly things have changed to make runs much less desirable:
And then as far as balance/interaction goes:
So basically now, it is now almost impossible to find and catch people doing drugs as police, so they don't bother. Doing drugs is way more tedious than it used to be, and the reward is not as good, so rebels don't bother. And since no one does drugs, Poseidon have no one to protect.
This also brings me onto one of my other main gripes: I have never truly understood the point of Poseidon. They are a drug cartel who have now completely invaded Altis, setting up drug locations wherever they please. And yet police are still forced to tiptoe around them. They walk around with high caliber rifles which cost them pennies, and any attempt to confiscate them inevitably ends in conflict, so why bother? They have basically just become an untouchable rebel group.
But at this point we have all 3 sides with nothing to do, so they just go to the red zones. And in my opinion the redzones (at least in the way they have been implemented) are just a bad idea. They just force everyone into the same stale fights where the group with the most people usually ends up "winning" in the end, because with 5 minute NLR it becomes almost impossible for the smaller groups to capture and keep the zone at 100% (since losing even 1% stops anyone from getting any money, you are forced to camp the zone). At least with the way they were before, where the money needed to be collected and laundered, you had more options in how you would defend the zones.
I also think the server has spent too long going down the rabbit hole of listening to "if server X has it, we should too" style suggestions, and basing lots of its decisions around a fundamentally broken voting system. I know people will disagree with this point, but in my opinion the server has become bland. Too many suggestions have been accepted to appease a vocal minority of players who seem to require constant gunfights, and so seem to vote solely based on how quickly it lets them kill people. No sway, no decamp script, limited sniping, tiny red zones with 5 minute NLR. But it's these same people who will happily log off this server and onto another one once they get bored of fighting in redzones. I miss gunfights which spread out over many kilometers, and which would often then turn into separate mini gunfights. The only time that ever happens these days is with HM reserve, which barely ever happens these days since there aren't enough police on.
So how do you fix all this? Although i'm still considering some of the details, in broad terms i'd say:
Basically you just need to remove lots of the predictability of what is going to happen. Provide some building blocks of how to start a situation, then let the players decide how to handle it. No matter how much you try, if most of the situations end up in the same few places, they get boring.
Edit: Prime example of problem with dynamic drug locations:
- Gathering is slower than it was. I believe part of this was due to a bug where you would gather multiple times at once, but honestly I think that was much better. There is no enjoyment in sitting in a field, holding down windows key for 5 minutes.
- Processing is slower than it was. Before, a high profession level could reduce your processing time to almost zero. Now even with hundreds of levels of experience, it still takes at least 10 seconds to process. Again, there is no enjoyment standing around waiting for stuff to process.
- The prices have gone down. The Kavala dealer used to offer 1.5x the market price. I don't remember what the drug prices were back then, but I don't think they were ever adjusted to account for this. I know the high grade drugs pay more, but that's not a fair comparison (see next point).
- High Grade drugs are annoying and inconvenient. If you want to do high grade drugs, you first have to travel to the border and spend 50k before even being able to find out if the drug locations are in decent spots. As of writing this the Poseidon Drug Dealer is south of Kavala. That's the opposite side of the map from where I've just travelled to. Why should I waste a good 10 minutes travelling around the map before I can do a drug run?
- Since the regular and high grade runs use different professions, you can't easily just mix and match if you want faster processing, until you've reached level 50 in both. Unless you want to waste more time, you basically have to just stick to one or the other.
- The requirements for 5 Police/Posiedon are understandable, but require metagaming to makes sure you aren't going to be screwed over, and even then if the numbers have dropped below 5 when you reach the dealer, then what? Have I just spent 30 mins+ only to get 50% of what I was expecting?
- Dynamic drug locations are nice in terms of realism, but just more annoyance when you actually want to make some money. Similar to the problem with Poseidon drug locations, it means I have no idea how long my run is going to take. The locations are also often quite inaccessible as well, for both rebels doing the runs and police checking them.
And then as far as balance/interaction goes:
- Police now have no idea where either regular or high grade drugs are. If they want accurate information without metagaming, they would have to find someone who is willing to tell them, and then they would need to travel to each location to verify it (which you can't even really do, apart from checking if there is a signpost at the processor). And as for Posiedon, good luck finding someone with a trade pass who is willing to give up where the locations are. At least when the Poseidon locations were only in Poseidon lands, you could generally spot where they were in a heli since there would normally be a few trucks around them. But now? No chance.
- Even with an I-99 patrol if you spot a truck that isn't at a known location (which is very unlikely given the huge size of the island, and the lack of people currently doing drugs) you have no idea if they are doing regular drugs, high grade drugs, or something completely unrelated. But lets say the person is doing drugs, and you send a unit over to check it out. Now what? They aren't in a known drug location, so if they play it smart and aren't already wanted how are police supposed to search them?
- If the police stop someone doing high grade drugs, and that person calls for help from Poseidon, you are basically guaranteed to end up in a gunfight because there is no reasonable middle ground. It is the police's job to stop the person doing drugs, and Poseidon's job to protect that person.
So basically now, it is now almost impossible to find and catch people doing drugs as police, so they don't bother. Doing drugs is way more tedious than it used to be, and the reward is not as good, so rebels don't bother. And since no one does drugs, Poseidon have no one to protect.
This also brings me onto one of my other main gripes: I have never truly understood the point of Poseidon. They are a drug cartel who have now completely invaded Altis, setting up drug locations wherever they please. And yet police are still forced to tiptoe around them. They walk around with high caliber rifles which cost them pennies, and any attempt to confiscate them inevitably ends in conflict, so why bother? They have basically just become an untouchable rebel group.
But at this point we have all 3 sides with nothing to do, so they just go to the red zones. And in my opinion the redzones (at least in the way they have been implemented) are just a bad idea. They just force everyone into the same stale fights where the group with the most people usually ends up "winning" in the end, because with 5 minute NLR it becomes almost impossible for the smaller groups to capture and keep the zone at 100% (since losing even 1% stops anyone from getting any money, you are forced to camp the zone). At least with the way they were before, where the money needed to be collected and laundered, you had more options in how you would defend the zones.
I also think the server has spent too long going down the rabbit hole of listening to "if server X has it, we should too" style suggestions, and basing lots of its decisions around a fundamentally broken voting system. I know people will disagree with this point, but in my opinion the server has become bland. Too many suggestions have been accepted to appease a vocal minority of players who seem to require constant gunfights, and so seem to vote solely based on how quickly it lets them kill people. No sway, no decamp script, limited sniping, tiny red zones with 5 minute NLR. But it's these same people who will happily log off this server and onto another one once they get bored of fighting in redzones. I miss gunfights which spread out over many kilometers, and which would often then turn into separate mini gunfights. The only time that ever happens these days is with HM reserve, which barely ever happens these days since there aren't enough police on.
So how do you fix all this? Although i'm still considering some of the details, in broad terms i'd say:
- Remove Posiedon, or heavily revamp them, perhaps so they are focused on distributing firearms instead dealing drugs.
- Incentivise drug runs by reducing the gathering and processing time (especially when you have a high profession level), and add a 2x illegal run.
- Scale illegal runs better when there are low numbers of cops on, and have that scale reduce gradually if cops log off.
- Show police where the drug locations are.
- Remove static redzones, and replace them with randomly spawned redzone-style objectives. Some possibilities:
Random zones similar to the SAF where you have to capture them for money.
- Moving objectives such as driving spawned in trucks to some place, such as a drug dealer or gold buyer.
- Scavenger hunts where you can find rare weapons/attachments/items.
Basically you just need to remove lots of the predictability of what is going to happen. Provide some building blocks of how to start a situation, then let the players decide how to handle it. No matter how much you try, if most of the situations end up in the same few places, they get boring.
Edit: Prime example of problem with dynamic drug locations:
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DJ
Well-known member
- Location
- The Valley's
So you want to remove predictability but also remove dyanmic locations and let the police know where they are?
NCA were crying out for things to do because no one did drugs and now they have to search for them its too much work? Surely it would make sense to keep drug locations dynamic but just make drugs more viable? if it's worth while people will do them, in terms of stopping and searching that was the whole point of UC assests to be able to confirm that illegal actvities are going on and then call in units to come pull them over? then there is a reason to stop and search?
Costing pennies is a bit over exaggerating! i mean the only way for me to really make money currently is to pay 300k for a loadout and do a redzone to get what 6-12k per zone which is usally castle and maybe research? I'm loosing money hand over fist here! Drugs are worth nothing and i have to pay to process anything else as poseidon aren't allowed licenses to do salt or diamounds so i have to pay 200k to process a hemmt truck?
I agree poseidon needs a rework but as far as i'm aware this was discussed back in 2019 and is alot of dev work to do, so i'm not sure if anything is being worked on or not but as it currently stands the only options are do drugs runs which pay very little for time and effort (usually half way through a run i'm being called to help out with something going on) Do a salt run and pay £200k to process to only then have to respond to something or sit in a zone and usually lose money to that.
- Location
- Kinitawowi
Well, first I didn't say dynamic locations should be removed. I just pointed out they are problematic. But yes, I think police should either know where they are, or have a way to find out where they are, and more importantly save that information until the location moves, including between restarts. Right now police basically have to start from scratch every 4 hours, which is unrealistic for regular patrols just wanting to scout the island for illegal activity. And frankly, I think drug runs should have that constant risk of police showing up. Otherwise they are no different than legal runs.
As far as gear prices, I dunno what gear you are buying as Poseidon, but I rarely pay more than 200k for my rebel loadout. What are you spending 300k on? Really though, it sounds like you agree with most of my complaints about Poseidon. They have nothing to do, and so just resort to going to the red zones. The server is stuck in a cycle of log on, go zones, get a few kills, log off. To break that cycle, I think there needs to be a dramatic shift in how the server operates.
Simon Ross
Šîmøñ Rø$š
- Location
- --
Remove Poseidon? This is honestly one of the worst things which could happen to the server. Poseidon currently provides around 10+ active players a day, and I doubt this sort of activity would carry across to Rebel Life if Poseidon was to be removed. I can tell you now, there is a signficant number of players in the faction who do play on other servers anyway, and many of which are actually in factions on these servers. If Poseidon was to be removed, I can almost guarantee that these players would move elsewhere for the most part, and then there would also be other friends who move over with them.
I agree with this, but needs to be more generic for all runs for faster gathering and processing times. As for a 2x illegal run, I support this, but I think it would make sense for it to be even more lucrative, maybe 3x instead, due to the greater risk involved. Just today 3 Hurons were scrapped by Police doing High Grade Weed, that is a lot of money to lose, and shows how high the stakes can be.
This is a good idea. I have been cought out a few times due to starting runs when there are 8 or 9 cops on, and finishing when there are only 4, and being completely screwed over due to this. Especially currently, with very few cops seeming to be on, this is a smart way to help encourage runs.
Queensland drugs remain in the same location for the entire 24 hour day I believe, and can be gained off of any player - have some UC RP in kavala... "Hiya bud, I wanna do a coke run but can't find the coke field on my map, could you tell me the grid ref so I can find it..." - there are many other things you could do like this to find it. As for Poseidon drugs, ours stay at the same locations often for weeks until Police shut it down, so they aren't too hard to find really if you play your cards right.
I like the static redzones. They mean there is always something to do. I think that alongside them there needs to be more SAF drops and dynamic zones which pay better and change the fighting locations (as continously fighting in the same locations does get boring after a while), however these need to be in addition too rather than in replace of IMO.
As a rebel my loadout can vary between 200k and 450k depending on what I buy. My go to rebel laodout is Type 115 or MK18 for the most part, which is around 200-300k depending on attachments. If I buy a MK1 it costs around 450, and can go higher if I buy a roach scope. As Poseidon we do not have as wide an arsenal as rebels, and I will generally buy a Promet MR, which will cost 200k for a loadout, or a MK1 which will cost 300-350k depending on the scopes and clothing etc, we wear. Whilst these prices are cheaper as Poseidon, we get payed a lot less from the zones, and the only true source of income from them are from the kills (which you do not get payed for if they are outside the cap point). We get 40k per kill, and if we have the zone capped we generally get around 11k each every time it pays out, which is nothing.
- Location
- Kinitawowi
I probably should've worded it better, but I agree there should always be some sort of zones available, whether static or dynamic. I certainly wouldn't mind the static zones staying if the dynamic zones were encouraged (better paying as you say).
The question is, if poseidon isn't removed, how can it be balanced to provide an enjoyable experience for everyone? Removing may very well be a bad idea, but I'm not sure what alternatives are left.
Since I'm not in poseidon I can't judge your loadout costs as poseidon, but I don't think zones should really be expected to pay for the loadouts of poseidon or rebels, especially if you keep buying MK1's. Similar to the point above, if poseidon do stay, I think they need to have some new or improved methods of earning money that don't involve gunfights (at least directly).
- Location
- B-74
I just want to make clear that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone who is posting on this topic. But what is the end goal of it are staff/management monitoring it to see what players want or is this just a place for people to repeat the same things over and over again about how the economy is broken and too hard for new players and the server is being dominated by people who want gunfights?
I don't want to be one of those people but will this post bring any change or is it just an area for people to vent about their issues on the server. Again I want to make it clear that I mean NO disrespect to anyone who has posted anything here all of it is very good constructive criticism but I don't want this just to be what Dan said where it will be forgotten in a week.
Basically, will anything come out of this (server change wise ?)
Edit: Looks like i was wrong Link
I don't want to be one of those people but will this post bring any change or is it just an area for people to vent about their issues on the server. Again I want to make it clear that I mean NO disrespect to anyone who has posted anything here all of it is very good constructive criticism but I don't want this just to be what Dan said where it will be forgotten in a week.
Basically, will anything come out of this (server change wise ?)
Edit: Looks like i was wrong Link
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GREENY
Well-known member
- Location
- liverpool
- Location
- The Marmite Pit
Predictably, that is exactly what this has become, people ranting about the same stuff as we have done for years and all these issues getting ignored. I wasn't really expecting much to happen from this anyway. It appears to me that Altis is being pushed to the side to focus on FiveM- which is fine, if they want to prioritise GTA that is their right- but if that's the case then they should put the Altis server in the hands of people that actually still care about it (i.e. the council idea). I only made the post in the suggestion forum because I realised my suggestions in this thread were getting ignored and I wanted to try to force it into their field of view.
ReiSSs
Well-known member
Easy to find the drug locations with thermals, Coordinate with your police force and figure it out, it's honestly not that difficult.
DJ
Well-known member
- Location
- The Valley's
We had it when UNMC was removed though, I was in the police at the time and all that would happen is rebel groups of 2/3 people would just get bullied by the police, they would spawn in airport and have 3 patrol cars on them to get there guns, at that point rebels stopped coming on as they were loosing everything as no one was on to counter the police in numbers and you would spend an hour driving around to find something illegal to stop, in the end the poor hobo with a rook doing a petrol station robbery would have the whole police force turn up,
Without an active rebel life, the factions have nothing to do other than go after each other when the other has less numbers and everyone gets fed up and doesn't log on, by that point you look and see only 30 people on the server and think nah, I'll play something else!
Maxim
Most Controversial Member of RPUK
- Location
- Leicestershire
I know some of us in AR have had thoughts of leaving the police because of the amount of fun we've had over christmas playing rebel, it hasn't just been the zones either, think we did 2 HM's and a bunch of banks, and with Fergu making his new gang It would make for an interesting dynamic since Police are gonna get their new rebel playing system soon so hopefully that should bring a few more gangs in. Something I don't want to see is a gang like the Plebs absolutely smashing the rest of the server due to numbers and the fact that pretty much every one of the Plebs is a pretty experienced player. A few smaller gangs of active players would be nice.
- Status